something within a bordure?

 
kkb-ia
 
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kkb-ia
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26 December 2010 14:09
 

If it is written, ar a cross within a bordure eng. sa.

What gets me is the "A" and the "WITHIN".

 

I am working on Holcroft arms.  Most share the ar a cross and bordure eng. sa. (shown to the right in my image)

 

I interpurt it to look like this… BUT the cross and bordure should both be black (sa), correct?. So I need some help on this one.

 

http://www.custom-gifts-and-arts.com/heraldry/withinbordure.jpg

 

OR am I misunderstanding the ar a cross and a bordure eng. sa.  making the cross WITHIN actually bleeding (a term not understood in this time period) into the bordure?

 

http://www.custom-gifts-and-arts.com/heraldry/withinbordure2.jpg

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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26 December 2010 15:00
 

An engrailed bordure should look like the following image, what you have shown is the opposite to engrailed, invected.

http://www.modaruniversity.org/images/SCA/bordure-engrailed.gif

 

In heraldry, a cross is expected to be drawn from one end of the shield to the other, from one side to the other. If the arms are to be held from the edges, there are special terms for these types of crosses, such as Latin cross or passion cross. So your cross on these arms should stretch all the way into the bordure, like you have done on the right hand side of your images.

 
kkb-ia
 
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kkb-ia
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26 December 2010 16:09
 

xanderliptak;80738 wrote:

An engrailed bordure should look like the following image, what you have shown is the opposite to engrailed, invected.

http://www.modaruniversity.org/images/SCA/bordure-engrailed.gif

 

Thank you for the correction about my engrailed booboo… I should of double checked myself with my heraldry book.

 

In heraldry, a cross is expected to be drawn from one end of the shield to the other, from one side to the other. If the arms are to be held from the edges, there are special terms for these types of crosses, such as Latin cross or passion cross. So your cross on these arms should stretch all the way into the bordure, like you have done on the right hand side of your images.


Okay that is what I initially thought… a cross (with out a defining placeholder) goes all the across and up/down the sheild, I should of stuck with my learned instict on this one.  So the "within a bordure" is still unanwered.

 
kkb-ia
 
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kkb-ia
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26 December 2010 21:48
 

OKay, sorry someone emailed me with what is meant when a blazon has the same colors for the ordinary and subordinary/charge.

"Argent (ar) a cross and a bordure sable (sa)"

and

"Argent (ar) a cross within a bordure sable (sa)"

 

Would actually be presented in the same, just the wording is slightly different yet the end results are the same.  POssibly the herald who wrote the second wanted to make sure it was clear that the cross should "bleed" into the bordure and not be misinterrupted as a "passion cross"

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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26 December 2010 23:44
 

The default for a cross (with no other description) in heraldry is one that bleeds off the edges.