Tincture Choice

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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03 March 2011 15:16
 

A transitional deacon for whom I’ve been design a coat of arms is having a difficult time deciding the tincture of one of the charges. He is debating whether the fleur de lis should be per pale azure and argent or per pale azure and or.

He originally turned to his friends, but they were split. So with his permission, I’m posting this to gather input from you heraldry enthusiasts. I recommended azure/argent, since this ties in the charges into the overall composition better than two unrelated colors. His concern with this is that it is too much white. The only color that has to say is the blue; the other two have not particularly strong meaning to him.

 

So, what are your thoughts? (I’ll explain the rationale in a later post when he has finally decided.)

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Resine/Heraldry/Personal Arms/v1colors1.pnghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Resine/Heraldry/Personal Arms/v1colors2.png

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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03 March 2011 15:39
 

The version on the right (f-d-l blue & white) is IMO the better choice heraldically, in that it avoids an extra color—the design is complicated enough already.

However, if the f-d-l is an especially important symbol for this fellow, the blue & gold version stands out more—in which case make the green parts red to eliminate one color.  Again IMO it depends on the relative importance of the star vs the f-d-l’s.

 

But as always, it will be his arms, not ours.

 
werewolves
 
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werewolves
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03 March 2011 15:56
 

I assume you’ve already tried the simple counter-changing approach and it was rejected?  The design would be great in just red and white…

 
Iain Boyd
 
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Iain Boyd
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03 March 2011 16:00
 

Normally, I would have said ‘azure and or’, but, having seen the emblazons I would agree with Michael - ‘azure and argent’ looks better.

However, rather than changing the azure to gules and making the fleur de lys counterchanged, how about changing the azure to sable?

 

An interesting and attractive design, though.

 

Regards,

 

Iain Boyd

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
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03 March 2011 16:17
 

The first one has five different tinctures. I would recommend changing the Vert to Azure as well as choosing the Argent rather than Or for the fleur-de-lis thereby dropping down to three tinctures: Argent, Gules and Azure.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 March 2011 16:29
 

Or leave the background red and white and make all the charges (both of the fleurs-de-lis and the star) blue and gold.  Red, green, white, blue, and yellow really does seem too much given the already eye-dazzling complexity of the lines.

Think he’d consider just charging the gyrons?  White stars on red, blue fleurs-de-lis on white…and get rid of the gyronny star in the center?

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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03 March 2011 18:31
 

Why not make the whole design Argent and Azure or Or and Azure. I think the whole design in a tincture and a metal would be quite striking and with it so buzy rather unique.

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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03 March 2011 19:26
 

I appreciate the comments. I should add a few things though. I have already tried convincing him of a simple two color counterchange on everything. It didn’t work.

The green, red, and white have special significance to him, so these I don’t want to touch. I don’t think the blue has any great meaning to him, but I’ve yet to be able to get him to budge on blue. From the beginning I though the f-d-l should simply be counterchanged of the field colors. I imagine it’s because he can’t conceive of a Marian symbol being any color other than blue, despite all that one tells him.

 

As for the complexity of the shield, he wanted a "geometerically interesting" design and the gyron with the star together comprise a cant on his surname, which I’m hesitant to change.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 March 2011 20:02
 

How about making the star bigger and putting the f-d-l on it on a disk or oval? Like this:

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=824&d=1299200426

 
werewolves
 
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werewolves
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03 March 2011 20:08
 

Dcgb7f;81591 wrote:

I appreciate the comments. I should add a few things though. I have already tried convincing him of a simple two color counterchange on everything. It didn’t work.

The green, red, and white have special significance to him, so these I don’t want to touch. I don’t think the blue has any great meaning to him, but I’ve yet to be able to get him to budge on blue. From the beginning I though the f-d-l should simply be counterchanged of the field colors. I imagine it’s because he can’t conceive of a Marian symbol being any color other than blue, despite all that one tells him.


Then of the two, I would say go with fewer colors.

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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04 March 2011 03:25
 

azure and argent more pleasing to the eye

 
david
 
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david
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04 March 2011 08:48
 

Too bad; limiting the tinctures to sable and or would have been striking.

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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04 March 2011 11:30
 

Generally I would prefer fewer tinctures, but having gone this far I almost lean the other way. If he goes with fleurs-de-lis Azure and Or, he’ll have every tincture except Sable and Purpure. Once he’s ordained, the priest’s hat will add Sable to the achievement. Then, if he becomes a Chaplain to His Holiness (Msgr.), he can add Purpure cords and tassels to a Sable hat. A clean sweep! Why not go for it?

 
Iain Boyd
 
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Iain Boyd
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04 March 2011 15:44
 

I guess most of you were wondering why I mentioned sable in my earlier reply.

On my monitor the star appears sable and argent and it was only when I looked at the emblazon carefully that I saw that what I thought was sable is actually green.

 

Personally, I think the number of tinctures should be reduced - if possible.

 

Regards,

 

Iain Boyd

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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04 March 2011 19:58
 

Joseph McMillan;81592 wrote:

How about making the star bigger and putting the f-d-l on it on a disk or oval? Like this:

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=824&d=1299200426


I also think this, Mr. McMillan’s solution, is brilliant.

 
Sami
 
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Sami
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05 March 2011 18:59
 

One idea that could reduce the complexity of the arms would be move the fleur-de-lis vertically (top to dexter and bottom to sinister) to be all in the argent fields. Then the f-d-l would be all blue, and them not being countercharged could make arms look less buzy.

Clever design with the gyronny and star making the center consist of one vert and one argent maltese cross.