Fred White;85489 wrote:
In any case, the question remains, where does the bar for nobility lie in Spanish certifications?
And moreover, what—if any—have been the restrictions on use of supporters (and helms, and crests) in Spanish heraldry historically?
Fred White;85360 wrote:
Given the amount of repetition in d’Hozier and its genesis as a tax-farming scheme, I have a hard time seeing how avoidance of usurpation was the main imperative at play there, but I can’t speak to the Spanish context. Either way, how do the goals of heraldic records in either France or Spain differ substantially from the goals of heraldic records elsewhere?
Dear Fred, sorry if there was certain misunderstanding behind my remarks. As to the d’Hoziers, whatever be the ultimate aim of the whole project, it should be executed in a heraldically reasonable and useful way. The British approach was, for the historical reasons, distinct in paying more attention to the heraldic fine points rooted in or tied to the livery practice, plus the insular heralds were better organised to crystalise their practice; the Germans also had a habit to be attentive to the external ornaments, mostly because the crests were involved into family identification. The French were merely more pragmatic.
Fred White;85360 wrote:
I’m sure you have good reason for saying this, but what, exactly, is the evidence that helms, crests, and supporters were "on the blazon" if they were not recorded in blazons?
The systematic use. The effective importance for identification and representation. The precedents, not so frequent but known, of official record. After all, heraldry may exist without any official record and we see it as existing by the same criteria.
Fred White;85360 wrote:
We must be miscommunicating. I haven’t asserted that any heraldic tradition doesn’t take an additament seriously or doesn’t feel it is truly heraldic if it isn’t typically part of a blazon. The question is whether or not its use is flexible, optional, etc., assuming one meets any relevant rank criteria. But I’ve been talking about crests and supporters, not coronets of rank, the meaning of which is never ambiguous.
Sorry again if I was imprecise in interpreting your remarks (but maybe I was not). The early coronets often were pretty ambiguous (as was, largely, the very use of titles in the old French monarchy). My point was that the use of the external ornaments was flexible and so was the use of the coats.
Fred White;85360 wrote:
How are those distinct from other crests?
The crests are presumed to be individual and figurative; the panaches are stereotyped, made of an undeterminated number of ostrich feathers coloured in accordance to the coat’s tinctures. If not a panache, then a real crest…
Fred White;85490 wrote:
And moreover, what—if any—have been the restrictions on use of supporters (and helms, and crests) in Spanish heraldry historically?
Dear Fred,
In Spanish heraldry only coronets of rank distinguish the arms of the titled nobility from those of the untitled nobility "hidalgos" and the commoners "pecheros". Crests, helms, and supporters do not indicate rank in Spanish heraldry today, and have been little used for hundreds of years.
If you are asking about historical usage - what period? The last sixty years since the enactment of the current law (1951) concerning the certification of nobility, genealogy,and arms by the Cronistas, the prior period since the end of the "antiguo regimen" in the mid 1830’s, or the period from the importation of the Flemmish practice of certifications in about 1506 with the arrival of Phillip the Fair as King of Castile? Prior to the arrival of Philip the Fair there were no heraldic restrictions of any kind other than against the usurpation of the royal arms.
Regards,
Fred White;85490 wrote:
And moreover, what—if any—have been the restrictions on use of supporters (and helms, and crests) in Spanish heraldry historically?
A correction to my last post - helms are extensively used in Spanish heraldry today and have been since the 16th century. In his one of the most important works by the Cronista de Armas Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent, Heraldica, La Sciencia del Blason, the cronista explains that although there is no officially recognized ranking for helms in Spanish heraldry heraldists should be aware of the official rankings of such in many neighboring realms.
The above notwithstanding, no cronista would make a certification of arms for a client in which helm was blazoned anything like a gold barred helm affronty - unless the client was don Juan Carlos I !!
Regards,
Fred White;85489 wrote:
where does the bar for nobility lie in Spanish certifications (from the Franco era to the present)? And how many certifications for Americans did Don Vicente issue in total?
You need to understand that from 1951 forward Certifications of Arms and Certifications of Nobility are two seperate documents.
The proofs for a Certification of Nobility are much more complex than those required for a Birth Brief from the Court of the Lord Lyon. These proofs would include membership by ones forebearers and/or oneself in the maestranzas, noble corporations, noble fraternities, orders that confer nobility, as well as the passage of time.
I have no idea regarding the number of certifications that Don Vicente issued to US citizens. This number must be at least in the 200 or 300 range but this is simply a guess derived from the publications of the American College of Heralrdy and the Augustan Society.
A passing comment re: the d’Hozier family—didn’t mean to impugn them, but the kings they worked for certainly had an eye for potential profit (but then so did Jame VI & I across the channel).
Also, while the late 1600’s seems a long time ago to us, it was rather late in the game compared to the history of French heraldry.
Quote:
And how many certifications for Americans did Don Vicente issue in total?
Hi Fred,
I think details of almost all of the armorial certificates issued by Don Vicente can be found in some publications including Heraldario español, europeo y americano and Blasonario de la Consanguinidad Iberica. You could probably research the number of certificates issued to residents of the United States. I was able to acquire these volumes from my local public library through interlibrary loan. Here is the entry for my grandfather:
snelson;85593 wrote:
I was able to acquire these volumes from my local public library through interlibrary loan.
Do you happen to remember which library yours borrowed them from? I might be setting the search parameters badly, but when I use worldcat, the nearest locations I’m picking up are overseas.
Excellent tip, in any case.
Another question, though: Are all of the entries like the one on the page including your grandfather’s arms? In other words, is anything ever blazoned beyond the shield?
I don’t know about other places, but the Library of Congress holds a copy of the 1980 Blasonario de la Consanguinidad Ibérica. That’s where I found the Spanish blazon of Ronald Reagan’s arms.
As far as I recall, the entries were all for shields only.
Quote:
Do you happen to remember which library yours borrowed them from? I might be setting the search parameters badly, but when I use worldcat, the nearest locations I’m picking up are overseas.
Here are a few:
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/27446360
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/7410854
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/29564900
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/32313069
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/8589115
Thanks, Sebastian and Joe!
David Pritchard;85477 wrote:
I seriously doubt that there more than a dozen and a half certifications to US citizens that included supporters spread over Don Vicente’s fifty plus year career as a Cronitsa de Armas.
Just out of curiosity, David, if the compendia of arms certified by Don Vicente include blazons for shields only, on what are you basing the assertion above?
Very interesting Sebastian, thanks for sharing the information.
Quote:
David Pritchard wrote:
I seriously doubt that there more than a dozen and a half certifications to US citizens that included supporters spread over Don Vicente’s fifty plus year career as a Cronitsa de Armas.
Fred White;85612 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, David, if the compendia of arms certified by Don Vicente include blazons for shields only, on what are you basing the assertion above?
I can’t speak to numbers, but my cousin has a certification from Don Vincente in 1982 with supporters, each a wyvern gules. Although he later obtained several titles, at that time he only held knighthood(s), as far as I know.
The arms were matriculated in Scotland in 1983, though sans supporters, of course.
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