‘Royal’ restored to Canadian Navy and Air Force

 
Benjamin Thornton
 
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Benjamin Thornton
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17 August 2011 10:47
 

In 1968, the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Air Force, and Royal Canadian Navy were unified into the Canadian Forces (subdivided with Land, Air, and Maritime Commands).

The Canadian government has just announced that the Forces will restore the RCAF, RCN, and Canadian Army names.  This has turned into a fairly large news story here in Canada, re-igniting debates about the monarchy, and about the effect in Quebec which traditionally has significantly less support for the monarchy, and yet provides a large number of military personnel.

 

I like the restoration, as do many veterans’ groups and, according to some polls, nearly two-thirds of Canadians.

 

To make this nominally heraldic, the badges of the RCN and RCAF:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3a/Canadian_Forces_Maritime_Command_Emblem.svg/125px-Canadian_Forces_Maritime_Command_Emblem.svg.png  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/76/Canada_air_force_command_badge.png/126px-Canada_air_force_command_badge.png

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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17 August 2011 11:38
 

Well, why shouldn’t they be “royal”?  Whether Québec likes it or not, Elizabeth is Queen of Canada – I mean, she’s on the money and everything… :D

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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17 August 2011 20:48
 

Good news Ben.  I didn’t know the "royal" had been removed.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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18 August 2011 09:03
 

Does the army not use "Royal"?

It’s nice to see them separated, I’m not sure what combining them really saved on. Seems it would have just added a level about the highest ranking office rather than do away with a lot.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 August 2011 09:30
 

xanderliptak;87139 wrote:

Does the army not use "Royal"?


For reasons that I once almost understood but don’t anymore, the British Army is not called "royal," and therefore the armies of countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., are also not called "royal."  I think it has something to do with differences in how the navy and army were legally constituted in England several centuries ago.

 

Many regiments and corps of these various armies do have the "royal" designation, of course—including Quebec’s premier infantry unit, the Royal 22 Régiment.

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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18 August 2011 20:03
 

xanderliptak;87139 wrote:

Does the army not use "Royal"?

It’s nice to see them separated, I’m not sure what combining them really saved on. Seems it would have just added a level about the highest ranking office rather than do away with a lot.


Combining institutions like the Air Force and Army doesn’t save at the tip-top. It saves in highest bit of the middle. For example every organization needs it’s own guy to take in all the information it receives, and decide who gets to read what (in the military these people are "intelligence analysts"). The same goes for things like buying toothpaste ("procurement"), getting things where they need to go after purchase ("logistics"), etc.

 

Pre-merger Canada had three different hierarchies for all the things I mentioned. Post-merger Canada has one.

 

Note that you’ve probably heard horror stories about one US Military branch deceiving Congress to get it’s way in a dispute with another military branch (if you haven’t I’m sure Joe could tell you stories)? Under a truly unified command structure such things are a lot rarer because instead of discrete group having access to their own information, which they do not necessarily have to share even if the law says they should, everybody’s got the same information.

 

Nick

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 August 2011 20:45
 

Nick B II;87141 wrote:

Note that you’ve probably heard horror stories about one US Military branch deceiving Congress to get it’s way in a dispute with another military branch (if you haven’t I’m sure Joe could tell you stories)?


What?  I have no idea what you’re talking about!

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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18 August 2011 20:48
 

Oh, government efficiency. Weird. Seems like you could merge the logistics and analysis and so forth of all branches without merging the entities together as one. But whatever works for them.

Hmm, and I never notices the British Army did not use the "Royal" prefix. From what I can read online, many of the individual corps and regiments predate the army and hold royal warrant in their own right. This is unlike the navy and air force which were called up under royal warrant all at once under such warrant. So when the army was consolidated, it was found that not every regiment owned a royal warrant and it was thus deemed unacceptable to call the combined force of the army "Royal" when only certain regiments and corps actually owned such honour.

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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18 August 2011 22:03
 

xanderliptak;87143 wrote:

Oh, government efficiency. Weird. Seems like you could merge the logistics and analysis and so forth of all branches without merging the entities together as one. But whatever works for them.


The problem is that if you keep the organizations separate they all have an interest in getting as much power back from the Forces proper as possible. In other words if an Air Force guy is made head of Canada Forces Logistics both the Navy and the Army will want to keep a really close eye on him, because he might be screwing them; so they’ll create teams to make sure he’s honest. After a few years of such pettiness you’re back at square one, except now you have four Logistics organizations to deal with instead of one.

 

The best example of this is probably Intelligence in the US. You remember the Intelligence Czar Bush created? He’s supposed to oversee all intelligence the US gathers, so that mistakes like those preceding S11 never happen again. In other words he’s doing the job the CIA was designed for in 1947, but he has to do more work (since he’s not CIA dealing with the CIA is a big part of his job), and he doesn’t have tens of thousands of agents to do it with.

 

Bureaucratic politics is truly fascinating on a theoretical level. On a practical level, OTOH, it just makes you lose your faith in mankind.

 

Nick

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 August 2011 23:29
 

May I suggest that a discussion of the merits of Canadian defense unification is rather far afield from heraldry and might perhaps be more appropriately carried on via PM?

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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19 August 2011 10:14
 

I am closing this thread as it has strayed from heraldry.

 
ninest123
 
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ninest123
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09 October 2018 23:30
 

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