J. Stolarz;87270 wrote:

Then while you look at the Augustan Society, and see that they are a bit more dedicated to heraldry, it isn’t really out there and in your face that they register arms, and they don’t have a roll of arms available online.  The most appealing thing about USHR was that you could register your arms, and it would show up on the website, and you could actually look at all the other arms in the system.  It was more out there, obvious, and in your face as to what the purpose of the organization was.

Just to clarify a few things in this thread, the Augustan Society will register arms whether one is a member of the Society or not. The cost is $150.00 for non-members and $120.00 for members.

As you doubtlessly know, the Augustan Society is one of the few US groups (perhaps the only one?) that will register additaments such as coronets and supporters for those deemed qualified to bear them.

The Society has published three volumes of arms, and the fourth is now in preparation, though still a good way from being in press.

A new refurbished website is in the works, and will contain information in greater detail about arms registration and other matters.

The Society also has an Arms Index project, with the aim to publish on-line blazons of all the arms registered by the Society and published in its journals. Work is proceeding (slowly) on this by the Heraldry Indexing Committee. The ultimate goal is to combine/share this with similar lists from other registering bodies in the US, to the extent they are willing to cooperate. Once there is an electronic roll of arms, it would be easy to create an Ordinary or at least a searchable file(s).

J. Stolarz;87270 wrote:

I think part of the problem with places like NEHGS, is that it isn’t a society specifically dedicated to heraldry. It’s really a society dedicated to genealogy, with a little wing dedicated to heraldry. Honestly after skimming their website for 15 minutes or so, I really couldn’t find anything on heraldry…or that they even register arms.

Then while you look at the Augustan Society, and see that they are a bit more dedicated to heraldry, it isn’t really out there and in your face that they register arms, and they don’t have a roll of arms available online. The most appealing thing about USHR was that you could register your arms, and it would show up on the website, and you could actually look at all the other arms in the system. It was more out there, obvious, and in your face as to what the purpose of the organization was.

All I can say is that there’s a reason online life is called "virtual reality," and it’s because there’s a world out there that is the real reality.  Something doesn’t have to be online to be real.

Now as I understand it part of the updating of the NEHGS COH is to establish a serious online presence, but as happens from time to time the committee member leading this effort has other things going on at the moment.

Well I sent an email to the Augustan Society as this is looking to be my only option. I have a way to be recognized by Clan Macmillan as an armiger but it hinges on three things.

1. I have to be a member of one of the clan branch associations. ( I am. )

2. I have to formally petition our clan chief for adoption into the clan by a letter to him. ( I have this in a rough draft and it has been sent to our chief’s personal persivant for review and proof reading before it is sent to the chief. If I am addopted the chief will sign a bond of manrent formally adopting me into the clan. )

3. I must have my arms registered and obtain a certificate of registry. ( This is what I am working on now. )

After all this the chief’s persivant will review everything and make the decision to recognize my status as an armiger.

Joseph McMillan;87273 wrote:

All I can say is that there’s a reason online life is called "virtual reality," and it’s because there’s a world out there that is the real reality.  Something doesn’t have to be online to be real.

Now as I understand it part of the updating of the NEHGS COH is to establish a serious online presence, but as happens from time to time the committee member leading this effort has other things going on at the moment.

My point being that while there is a real world out there, having things available in the digital world makes it much more accessible to anybody.  Something I believe the older generations blow off most of the time…which is probably part of the reason why those societies are just now considering adding an online armorial.

J. Stolarz;87276 wrote:

My point being that while there is a real world out there, having things available in the digital world makes it much more accessible to anybody. Something I believe the older generations blow off most of the time…which is probably part of the reason why those societies are just now considering adding an online armorial.

Oh, I think you’ve made your point quite clear.

Let me make mine clear.  If you think the "older generations blow off most of the time,"* and you think an online heraldic registry is such an important thing for American heraldry, then why don’t you stop wringing your hands about what other people are not doing and do something yourself?  You should have no problem enlisting all the other people who are lamenting that Mike Swanson didn’t ask for help running the USHR.

__________

* By the way, if not for the "blowing off" of the older generation, the AHS would have lapsed into bankruptcy several years ago, we’d still have an legally flawed organizational structure, and we’d have a nice glossy website with no content.

harold cannon;87258 wrote:

I just contacted the New England Historic Genealogical Society and they stated that they were not doing registration anymore. They will help with research but not registration ....

Joseph McMillan;87269 wrote:

There is a place for Americans to register their arms for a very reasonable price and it’s the NEHGS COH.  The society has been around since something like 1845, the COH since the 1860s, and they’ve been recording assumed arms since around 1915.  It’s well established and it’s not going anywhere.

OK, I’m sorry but now I’m confused. Is NEHGS still registering coats of arms or not?

Ok guys thats enough.

Arriano the New England Historic Genealogical Society told me over the phone that they did not.

harold cannon;87279 wrote:

Ok guys thats enough.

Arriano the New England Historic Genealogical Society told me over the phone that they did not.

I recieved my application to register arms from the NEHGS in the mail three days ago.  I don’t know with whom you spoke at the NEHGS, but I believe that they may have misspoke.

I expect that the main office of the NEHGS is not attuned to this process.  We give the COH contact info as we have it on the registrations page, linked from the AHS home page.  I will contact my acquaintance who’s on the committee and raise the issue of the unawareness of the main office and the fact that the committee is invisible on the new setup of the society website.

By the way, to use the COH’s own terminology, they only "register" arms that were in use in the US before 1917, and to which the original immigrant had a proven right in his home country.

Newly assumed arms are technically "recorded," not "registered."  As far as I can tell, the only practical difference is that they eventually publish the registered arms but not the recorded ones.

I cannot understand why anyone who has a serious interest in heraldry would object to paying $325.00 to the ACH to have a proper registration and publication of their arms.  Many people spend more on consumer items of marginal utility which are eventually discarded.  Published arms are a permanent mark and statement of one’s identity which are as intimately related to an individual’s identity as his surname - surely something that is worth spending a few coins on!

Re: Harold’s posting below: I wasn’t aware that the Chief of the Macmillans (or any clan chief, other than the three or four senior Scottish peers noted on the Heraldry Society of Scotland’s website—Mar, Hay, Leslie & lately Macdonald IIRC) has a personal pursuivant—interesting…  I wonder how widespread this practice may be.

(At the Scottish Games, the Clan Chattan tent has for years displayed a nice, but by now somewhat faded, tabard of the arms of their chief - I always supposed that it was to represent the chief him or herself, but I suppose it would also serve for a pursuivant…)

And to be clear, are talking about Macmillan of Knap, the chief recognized by Lyon, or the head of a clan association?

Mike~~

=========

HC wrote, "Well I sent an email to the Augustan Society as this is looking to be my only option. I have a way to be recognized by Clan Macmillan as an armiger but it hinges on three things.

1. I have to be a member of one of the clan branch associations. ( I am. )

2. I have to formally petition our clan chief for adoption into the clan by a letter to him. ( I have this in a rough draft and it has been sent to our chief’s personal persivant for review and proof reading before it is sent to the chief. If I am addopted the chief will sign a bond of manrent formally adopting me into the clan. )

3. I must have my arms registered and obtain a certificate of registry. ( This is what I am working on now. )

After all this the chief’s persivant will review everything and make the decision to recognize my status as an armiger.

(end of Harold’s posting)

===========

The persivant is newly re-established for Clan MacMillan. It goes back to there is no heraldic authority in the U.S. So they can approve an armiger in the states to use his crest and circlet, and heraldry in conjunction with the clan.  Its not something that they take lightly, trust me, but it is the authority of the chief of a clan to decide who wears feathers. Lord Lyon does not control this.

It is MacMillan of Knap.

Josh wrote, "I think part of the problem with places like NEHGS, is that it isn’t a society specifically dedicated to heraldry. It’s really a society dedicated to genealogy, with a little wing dedicated to heraldry. Honestly after skimming their website for 15 minutes or so, I really couldn’t find anything on heraldry…or that they even register arms.

The other related posts address the current situation re: the internal workings of the NEHGS COH—I hope they succeed!

But as a more general observation—at least for family arms that have been around for awhile (i.e. much beyond the design stage) we should remember that heraldry is subsidiary to genealogy—i.e. heraldry, in the long run, exists to demonstrate and preserve and further genealogy, not the other way around.

Because so much of our collective interest and effort is devoted to creation of new arms, we tend (understandably) to treat genealogy as just one of many possible sources to mine for heraldic ideas and themes; but once we have a design, and assuming the intent or hope is to have it represent our extended families and posterity, then heraldry reverts to its traditional role as "the handmaiden of history."

Doesn’t make our efforts and interests wrong—far from it!—but we may need to remind ourselves from time to time which is the dog and which is the tail.  (or, since I haven’t had lunch yet & will be going to choir practice this evening—the difference between the sermon and the potluck.)

Joseph McMillan;87277 wrote:

Oh, I think you’ve made your point quite clear.

Let me make mine clear.  If you think the "older generations blow off most of the time,"* and you think an online heraldic registry is such an important thing for American heraldry, then why don’t you stop wringing your hands about what other people are not doing and do something yourself?  You should have no problem enlisting all the other people who are lamenting that Mike Swanson didn’t ask for help running the USHR.

 

__________

* By the way, if not for the "blowing off" of the older generation, the AHS would have lapsed into bankruptcy several years ago, we’d still have an legally flawed organizational structure, and we’d have a nice glossy website with no content.

I haven’t started my own, because I respect the fact that I lack the knowledge of heraldry to feel comfortable running something like that.  Which is why I’ve been trying to offer any assistance I can, but seeing as nobody can contact Michael, I’m left to ranting here.  But honestly at this rate, I’m getting very tempted to try.

As far as the younger generation and the older generation.  I believe you need both helping in order to have a successful website, or organization.  Then you can have something that isn’t legally flawed, but also has the visual appeal that people look for.  You either can end up with the older people running everything, and then everything looks cut and dry…or the younger group running everything and completely ignoring the finer details.  Or, you can utilize the strengths of both, and get the best of both worlds.  The best teams are the weird ones, and you don’t want everybody to have the same mindset as you.  If you do, then it’s probably a cult .

Luis Cid;87284 wrote:

I cannot understand why anyone who has a serious interest in heraldry would object to paying $325.00 to the ACH to have a proper registration and publication of their arms.  Many people spend more on consumer items of marginal utility which are eventually discarded.  Published arms are a permanent mark and statement of one’s identity which are as intimately related to an individual’s identity as his surname - surely something that is worth spending a few coins on!

Perhaps years down the line.  Besides, though I may be able to justify it, I’m not sure my wife would agree with my sentiments .