Progress towards my arms being recognised.

 
harold cannon
 
Avatar
 
 
harold cannon
Total Posts:  240
Joined  30-03-2011
 
 
 
30 September 2011 14:18
 

I recieved my certificate of registration for my arms from Michael Richards at assumearms.com. That step is now over and my bond is with our clan’s chief to be signed as we speak so I seem to be making progress.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6014/6198125155_f7f6c0352f_b.jpg

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
Avatar
 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
Total Posts:  2518
Joined  04-06-2007
 
 
 
30 September 2011 19:49
 

I am curious to see if MacMillan of MacMillan & Knap recognizes a registration with a private entity in the states. That could be a very interesting precedent.

 
 
Andrew Stewart Jamieson
 
Avatar
 
 
Andrew Stewart Jamieson
Total Posts:  244
Joined  13-05-2011
 
 
 
30 September 2011 20:18
 

Kenneth Mansfield;88084 wrote:

I am curious to see if MacMillan of MacMillan & Knap recognizes a registration with a private entity in the states. That could be a very interesting precedent.


Indeed it would.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
Avatar
 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
Total Posts:  2518
Joined  04-06-2007
 
 
 
30 September 2011 20:48
 

I suppose I should clarify. When MacMillan of M&K speaks of recognizing arms that are granted or registered, I suspect he means by the College/Lyon for the former and someplace like South Africa’s Bureau of Heraldry for the latter. Registering arms with someplace like Michael Richards’ assumerarms.com or even the more reputable NEGHS probably doesn’t count, as it provides nothing other than a date of record in terms of the law.

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
30 September 2011 22:22
 

This came up before in another thread.  See http://americanheraldry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6174&highlight=knap&page=6 starting with message #59.

 
Nick B II
 
Avatar
 
 
Nick B II
Total Posts:  203
Joined  26-11-2007
 
 
 
30 September 2011 23:24
 

Kenneth Mansfield;88086 wrote:

I suppose I should clarify. When MacMillan of M&K speaks of recognizing arms that are granted or registered, I suspect he means by the College/Lyon for the former and someplace like South Africa’s Bureau of Heraldry for the latter. Registering arms with someplace like Michael Richards’ assumerarms.com or even the more reputable NEGHS probably doesn’t count, as it provides nothing other than a date of record in terms of the law.


The chief has created this process precisely because some of his American clansman assumed arms, but hadn’t registered them with the Lyon, which meant they got crap from pedantic twits at Highland Games. If the Chief of the Clan recognizes a Clansman as an armiger it should shut some of those twits up.

 

Since there’s no heraldic authority in the US he’ll have to accept registrations from private groups. He’s already accepted that MacMillan clansman in the US have the right to assume arms, he’s just insisting on some paperwork to prove it before he blesses the assumptions.

 

It’s possible the Chief’s thinking only of things like the South African Bureau, or Canada’s Heraldic Authority; and he hasn’t made that clear to his underlings. But I wouldn’t bet on that.

 

Nick

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
01 October 2011 07:49
 

I would assume (no pun intended) that Knap’s heraldic adviser Scott MacMillan (late of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland) will decide what he thinks is acceptable and advise the chief accordingly.

Personally, given that the arms of the organization and of its executive director as shown on the document are an implicit reflection of its heraldic competence, I would have a hard time taking AssumeArms.com’s registrations seriously.

 
Caledonian
 
Avatar
 
 
Caledonian
Total Posts:  153
Joined  13-09-2011
 
 
 
01 October 2011 09:36
 

Joseph McMillan;88104 wrote:

I would assume (no pun intended) that Knap’s heraldic adviser Scott MacMillan (late of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland) will decide what he thinks is acceptable and advise the chief accordingly.

Personally, given that the arms of the organization and of its executive director as shown on the document are an implicit reflection of its heraldic competence, I would have a hard time taking AssumeArms.com’s registrations seriously.


If Mr. Cannon wishes to have his coat of arms recorded/registered with the United States Copyright Office he could certainly do so under the category of the arms being a work of "visual art", while the blazon of the arms could likewise be registered/recorded with the Copyright Office as a work of "literary art". Having the arms recorded with the copyright office would thus provide a very real form of registration from an official government office of the United States and would also offer a degree of protection from unauthorised duplication. However doing so may not be completely satisfactory in dealing with heraldic snobbery of the sort that is often exhibited by certain individuals.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
01 October 2011 10:01
 

Caledonian;88114 wrote:

If Mr. Cannon wishes to have his coat of arms recorded/registered with the United States Copyright Office he could certainly do so under the category of the arms being a work of "visual art", while the blazon of the arms could likewise be registered/recorded with the Copyright Office as a work of "literary art". Having the arms recorded with the copyright office would thus provide a very real form of registration from an official government office of the United States and would also offer a degree of protection from unauthorised duplication. However doing so may not be completely satisfactory in dealing with heraldic snobbery of the sort that is often exhibited by certain individuals.


The only thing unsatisfactory about copyrighting a coat of arms is that it doesn’t provide what people assume it provides. See http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Registration.Domestic#toc3.

 

As for tossing about accustions of snobbery, a snob is, among other things, "one who blatantly imitates…those regarded as social superiors." Chiefs of bona fide Highland clans, for example, are the kind of people that a snob might blatantly imitate.

 

P.S. Spelling doesn’t appear to be AssumeArms.com’s strong suit, either.  "Afforementioned?"  "Conter-changed?" "Arminger" for heaven’s sake?

 
Caledonian
 
Avatar
 
 
Caledonian
Total Posts:  153
Joined  13-09-2011
 
 
 
01 October 2011 10:15
 

Joseph McMillan;88115 wrote:

The only thing unsatisfactory about copyrighting a coat of arms is that it doesn’t provide what people assume it provides.  See http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Registration.Domestic#toc3.

In the "I don’t think that word means what you think it means" category, a snob is, among other things, "one who blatantly imitates…those regarded as social superiors."  Chiefs of bona fide Highland clans, for example, are the kind of people that a snob might blatantly imitate.


Or those who purchase baronial titles for themselves of the sort that are sold for tens of thousands of dollars to pretentious twits willing to pay such a price, as if they were buying a used Bentley, in order to appear aristocratic:

 

http://baronytitles.com/index.php?page=info

 

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.heraldry/2011-03/msg00540.html

 
harold cannon
 
Avatar
 
 
harold cannon
Total Posts:  240
Joined  30-03-2011
 
 
 
01 October 2011 21:32
 

My purpose for doing this is to have my arms registered and recognised by my clan and chief. I would also like to pass them along to my future children then on down the line through time. To me it is a way for me to be a part of my family after I am gone.

 
Caledonian
 
Avatar
 
 
Caledonian
Total Posts:  153
Joined  13-09-2011
 
 
 
01 October 2011 22:59
 

harold cannon;88130 wrote:

My purpose for doing this is to have my arms registered and recognised by my clan and chief. I would also like to pass them along to my future children then on down the line through time. To me it is a way for me to be a part of my family after I am gone.


I certainly understand and appreciate your intentions, Harold, and I think that bearing a coat of arms today as a distinctive emblem of identity is an excellent means of establishing continuity with the heritage of our ancestors. I hope that my own descendants will appreciate and want to keep the worldly possessions relating to my heritage that I have enjoyed having in my lifetime, including those that incorporate my ancestral heraldry, so that a part of myself may continue to live on with them through those objects that have held a special significance to me.

 
duchessofnc
 
Avatar
 
 
duchessofnc
Total Posts:  4
Joined  14-09-2011
 
 
 
02 October 2011 00:00
 

Caledonian;88116 wrote:

Or those who purchase baronial titles for themselves of the sort that are sold for tens of thousands of dollars to pretentious twits willing to pay such a price, as if they were buying a used Bentley, in order to appear aristocratic:

http://baronytitles.com/index.php?page=info

 

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.heraldry/2011-03/msg00540.html


I hardly think that someone having a used Bentley is trying to "keep up with appearances". Well maybe if the Bentley is newer than 10 years.

 

However anyone with say a Bentley from the 1930’s just totally rocks. There is no question about it because those are antique works of automotive technology. But never mine me.. I am just a mere woman who just admires old cars and the people who own them.

 

Incidentally, a very good friend of my husband and I’s has a Bentley from I believe 1935 (I might mistake the year.. maybe 1934) and it was an absolute beauty. I hope you weren’t referring to him because you are by far in the same class as him or his wife, Steve.

 
David Pritchard
 
Avatar
 
 
David Pritchard
Total Posts:  2058
Joined  26-01-2007
 
 
 
02 October 2011 00:18
 

Caledonian;88116 wrote:

Or those who purchase baronial titles for themselves of the sort that are sold for tens of thousands of dollars to pretentious twits willing to pay such a price, as if they were buying a used Bentley, in order to appear aristocratic:


Anyone buying a used Bently or Rolls-Royce is not a twit but rather a "Job Creator" who will help the local economy by keeping at least one automotive mechanic in regular employment. I strongly encourage all with too much money to buy toys such as these autos (sailboats & yachts too) as they actually spread the wealth to those who maintain them, supply them, rent the storage space etc.

 
Andrew Stewart Jamieson
 
Avatar
 
 
Andrew Stewart Jamieson
Total Posts:  244
Joined  13-05-2011
 
 
 
02 October 2011 05:11
 

David Pritchard;88133 wrote:

Anyone buying a used Bently or Rolls-Royce is not a twit but rather a "Job Creator" who will help the local economy by keeping at least one automotive mechanic in regular employment. I strongly encourage all with too much money to buy toys such as these autos (sailboats & yachts too) as they actually spread the wealth to those who maintain them, supply them, rent the storage space etc.


Well said! David. Besides a Bentley no matter what age is a fine piece of engineering and a joy to drive. My son is a private yacht skipper he is able so to be because people are twit-ish enough to want to own a yacht!

 
Caledonian
 
Avatar
 
 
Caledonian
Total Posts:  153
Joined  13-09-2011
 
 
 
02 October 2011 08:29
 

duchessofnc;88132 wrote:

I hardly think that someone having a used Bentley is trying to "keep up with appearances". Well maybe if the Bentley is newer than 10 years.

However anyone with say a Bentley from the 1930’s just totally rocks. There is no question about it because those are antique works of automotive technology. But never mine me.. I am just a mere woman who just admires old cars and the people who own them.

 

Incidentally, a very good friend of my husband and I’s has a Bentley from I believe 1935 (I might mistake the year.. maybe 1934) and it was an absolute beauty. I hope you weren’t referring to him because you are by far in the same class as him or his wife, Steve.


I wouldn’t think so, I drive a Chevrolet.