Lord Lyon and Clans

 
Terry
 
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18 October 2011 10:44
 

Caledonian;89056 wrote:

So, by the wording of the above statement issued by Lyon Court, it would seem that the only cases which the procurator fiscal would bring before Lord Lyon would be those involving the unlawful use of someone else’s coat of arms, as the Information leaflet makes no mention in regard to individuals simply bearing a coat of arms which has not been recorded in Lyon Register. Such arms would simply be without protection from usurption in Lyon Court, but would not necessarily be illegal nor would they automatically subject the bearer to prosecution.


2008 - Lyon Court investigated and threatened Trump.  Stating he cannot use arms in Scotland that have not been registered with the Court.  Clearly showing it is illegal to use Arms in Scotland that have not been registered and that they will investigate for non registration as well as usurption.

 

Linky

 
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18 October 2011 11:02
 

Terry;89068 wrote:

2008 - Lyon Court investigated and threatened Trump.  Stating he cannot use arms in Scotland that have not been registered with the Court.  Clearly showing it is illegal to use Arms in Scotland that have not been registered and that they will investigate for non registration as well as usurption.

Linky


The newspaper article about Donald Trump’s use of unregistered arms in Scotland does not state that Trump was being prosecuted - it only states that his use of the arms was being "investigated" by the procurator fiscal to Lyon Court. This is a form of intimadation tactic; but it isn’t legal prosecution. Was the case ever resolved?

 
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18 October 2011 11:06
 

Joseph McMillan;89059 wrote:

This is arguably true in England (I myself would argue it). It is clearly not true in Scotland. The statute is on the books and the Procurator Fiscal clearly acts to enforce it. His moves against the rugby clubs, which provoked a recent furor in some parts of the Scottish press, are clear evidence that the law is taken seriously.

If it were simply a matter of protecting one person’s arms against usurpation by someone else, Lyon would have only civil, not criminal jurisdiction, and the court would not have a prosecutor.

 

The note on the Lyon Court website that the bearer of arms can bring infringements of his rights to the attention of the PF does not mean that the PF is unable to act without such a complaint.  An American can go to the local DA asking him to bring criminal charges against someone, but that doesn’t mean the DA is barred from bringing charges on his own authority without such a request.


In regard to the use of unregistered heraldic devices by the Rugby teams, were the heraldic devices the registered ensigns armorial of someone else, or where they merely unique heraldic devices assumed by the Rugby teams without registration?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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18 October 2011 11:32
 

Caledonian;89076 wrote:

In regard to the use of unregistered heraldic devices by the Rugby teams, were the heraldic devices the registered ensigns armorial of someone else, or where they merely unique heraldic devices assumed by the Rugby teams without registration?


I cannot say for sure, but given that there is no mention of the use of someone else’s arms in the mention of it on the Procurator Fiscal website…


Quote:

The procurator fiscal has recently investigated a number of football and rugby clubs who were displaying heraldry which was not registered in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings of Scotland. Whilst their usage was done with innocent intent, it nevertheless contravened the Law of Arms. Each case was resolved amicably without the need for prosecution.  Clubs are reminded that should they wish to display heraldry on their badges, publicity material, official merchandise etc…, they should petition the Lyon court for a grant of the proposed arms.

30 November 2010


...and given that there is mention of the fact that the Aberdeen National Front was using the arms of other entities in the same section of said website, it seems quite likely that they were simply using unregistered arms. Adding to that reasoning would be the suggestion that the clubs "petition the Lyon court for a grant of the proposed arms."

 
 
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18 October 2011 11:42
 

Kenneth Mansfield;89085 wrote:

I cannot say for sure, but given that there is no mention of the use of someone else’s arms in the mention of it on the Procurator Fiscal website…

 

 

...and given that there is mention of the fact that the Aberdeen National Front was using the arms of other entities in the same section of said website, it seems quite likely that they were simply using unregistered arms. Adding to that reasoning would be the suggestion that the clubs "petition the Lyon court for a grant of the proposed arms."


With sports teams there is very often the sort of unsportsman like rivalry which leads to the supporters of one team doing spiteful things against their teams opponents. I suspect that this may well have been the case in the situation that you mention.

 

It would be good to have definate clarification on this, and I suspect that the procurator fiscal may be intimidating the users of unregistered arms into thinking that they could be prosecuted for using unregistered arms, where this may not actually be the case. Such heavy-handed tactics are unfortunately not uncommon among authorities eager to appear to have powers that they do not legally possess.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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18 October 2011 11:48
 

Caledonian;89087 wrote:

It would be good to have definate clarification on this, and I suspect that the procurator fiscal may be intimidating the users of unregistered arms into thinking that they could be prosecuted for using unregistered arms, where this may not actually be the case. Such heavy-handed tactics are unfortunately not uncommon among authorities eager to appear to have powers that they do not legally possess.

Regardless of motive, it is also possible that the procurator fiscal is intimidating the users of unregistered arms because he can prosecute them (and because he wants them to comply with the law), not just because he wants them to think he can. "Such heavy-handed tactics" are also used by people who do possess the legal authority to carry them out.

 
 
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18 October 2011 12:04
 

Kenneth Mansfield;89089 wrote:

Regardless of motive, it is also possible that the procurator fiscal is intimidating the users of unregistered arms because he can prosecute them (and because he wants them to comply with the law), not just because he wants them to think he can. "Such heavy-handed tactics" are also used by people who do possess the legal authority to carry them out.


Of course they are, but the question of the legal authority in such a case still remains. It would be desirable a case of this sort if someone were to stand up to such intimidation tactics where the use of unregistered arms unique to the bearer are involved to test the validity of such an argument and see if it would indeed stand up in today’s courts, rather than allow the authorities to continue to use heavy handed intimidation tactics to unjustly harass and threaten those who have broken no just law, but have merely ignored the pretentions of jurisdiction over matters that are outside the law by the authorities in question. In order for justice to prevail, it is necessary for laws to be tested.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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18 October 2011 12:12
 

Well, considering that the court of first instance is Lyon Court, and that there is a very clear statute on the books (which the Court of Session has construed with respect to the provision on territorial designations in the very recent past), and that all the academic authorities on Scots heraldry are on the Procurator Fiscal’s side, it would take a person with more money than sense to spend tens of thousands of pounds in lawyers’ fees rather than just shelling out the £2,106 for a grant (£3,078 in the case of a commercial firm).

 
Nick B II
 
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18 October 2011 12:17
 

Kenneth Mansfield;89089 wrote:

Regardless of motive, it is also possible that the procurator fiscal is intimidating the users of unregistered arms because he can prosecute them (and because he wants them to comply with the law), not just because he wants them to think he can. "Such heavy-handed tactics" are also used by people who do possess the legal authority to carry them out.


And if there was any question on his authority to charge people for not registering their arms one would assume Donald Trump would have called him on his bluff.

 

There are many people in this world who’ll say "I’d rather spend $2,000 so this Lord Lyon will stop hassling me, then spend $3,000 beating him in Court." Donald Trump just ain’t one of those people.

 

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18 October 2011 13:06
 

Joseph McMillan;89094 wrote:

Well, considering that the court of first instance is Lyon Court, and that there is a very clear statute on the books (which the Court of Session has construed with respect to the provision on territorial designations in the very recent past), and that all the academic authorities on Scots heraldry are on the Procurator Fiscal’s side, it would take a person with more money than sense to spend tens of thousands of pounds in lawyers’ fees rather than just shelling out the £2,106 for a grant (£3,078 in the case of a commercial firm).


The Lord Lyon Act of 1587 makes no reference to prosecuting individuals for the use of unregistered arms unique to themselves, nor does the Lord Lyon Act of 1592, which merely forbids anyone from usurping arms belonging to someone else, or from the use of an ancestor’s arms without relevant differencing where applicable, or from making unauthorized use of the Royal Arms on any of their personal possessions.

 

The 1672 Lord Lyon Act required all those then bearing coats of arms in Scotland to register their arms with Lord Lyon within the space of one year and forbid them thereafter from using different coats of arms from those which they had registered. However there is no clear indication in the 1672 Act that any prosecution could be made against someone for using arms unique to the bearer that were not recorded in Lyon register after the closing of the registration date.

 
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18 October 2011 13:11
 

Nick B II;89096 wrote:

And if there was any question on his authority to charge people for not registering their arms one would assume Donald Trump would have called him on his bluff.

There are many people in this world who’ll say "I’d rather spend $2,000 so this Lord Lyon will stop hassling me, then spend $3,000 beating him in Court." Donald Trump just ain’t one of those people.

 

Nick


Any idea of how the Trump case worked out? Did Trump acquiesce to the procurator fiscal’s threats by registering the arms with Lyon Court? It would be good to have the complete facts here and not rely on assumptions as too many are wont to do.

 
Terry
 
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18 October 2011 13:36
 

Ok…this is going round and round.

 

Using your own words
Quote:

In order for justice to prevail, it is necessary for laws to be tested.

I invite you to challenge the Lyon Court.  Use your arms openly in Scotland and when the Procurator Fiscal tells you to register your arms, refuse and go to court.

 
Caledonian
 
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18 October 2011 14:02
 

Terry;89105 wrote:

Ok…this is going round and round.

 

Using your own words I invite you to challenge the Lyon Court.  Use your arms openly in Scotland and when the Procurator Fiscal tells you to register your arms, refuse and go to court.


I don’t live in Scotland, nor do I have occassion to visit it; however I would invite anyone to point out specifically where the use of my arms in Scotland would give the procurator fiscal of Lyon Court just cause to bring me up for prosecution for doing so.

 

Here for your reference are the Lord Lyon Acts, which I have translated from Middle Scots into English, leaving the capitalization and punctuation as found in the original acts:


Quote:

The Officers of Arms Act of 1587

Act for reformation of the extraordinary number and manifold abuses of officers of Arms (1587 cap. 46)

Our Sovereign Lord and their estates of Parliament Considering how of late years there is entered in the office of arms sundry extraordinary masseris and pursuivants and a very great number of messengers through importune suit of diverse parties in such a confused and uncertain manner that it is become doubtful who are admitted and how and who deprived or not or whether their cautioners be living or departed this life And seeing their was always in times of best government a certain number of officers of arms it is therefore thought expedient statute and ordained That in time coming their shall be only two hundred persons wearing and bearing our sovereign lord’s arms in the whole bounds of the realm of Scotland In which number Lyon king of arms and his brothers the ordinary heralds masseris and pursuivants shall be comprehended being in number XVII persons and the remaining to be divided amongst the remnant sheriffdoms of the realm in manner after following That is to say within the sheriffdom of Orkney and Shetland IV within the sheriffdom of Inverness and Cromarty X within the sheriffdom of Narne II within the sheriffdom of Elgin and Foress V within the sheriffdom of Banff IV within the sheriffdom of Aberdeen XII within the sheriffdom of Kincardine IV within the sheriffdom of Forfar X within the sheriffdom of Fife X within the sheriffdom of Kinross I within the sheriffdom of Clackamannan II within the sheriffdom of Perth and Stewarties of Menteith and Stratherne XII within the sheriffdom of Stirling V within the sheriffdom of Dumbarton IV within the sheriffdom of Linlithgow IV within the sheriffdom of Edinburgh principal XXIV within the sheriffdom of Edinburgh and constabulary of Haddington IV within the sheriffdom of Berwick IV within the sheriffdom of Roxburgh VIII within the sheriffdom of Selkirk II within the sheriffdom of Peebles III within the sheriffdom of Lanark X within the sheriffdom of Renfrew IV within the sheriffdom of Argyll and Tarbert IV within the sheriffdom of Bute II within the sheriffdom of Ayr XII within the sheriffdom of Wigtoun IV within the sheriffdom of Dumfries and Stewarties of Kirkcudbright and Annandale XII And to the effect that the order now appointed may take the better effect Ordains and commands Lyon king of arms That he anywise reissue any manner of persons to the office of messenger in time coming except it be in the place of one of the persons that shall be thought fit to be retained after the first day of November next to come to by his decease or deprivation Notwithstanding any precept or warrant giving or to be given in the contrary Where in if he fails he shall incur the indignation of our sovereign lord and the person so admitted shall have no place to use and exercise the said office nor his executions whatsoever shall nowise be valid in Judgment or out with .... Our sovereign lord ordains .... for all complaints to be made to Lyon king of arms upon the defaults of officers in time coming he shall set two preemptor [Courts] in the year to be holding in Edinburgh upon the sixth day of May and the sixth day of November if they be lawful and failing thereof the next lawful days and shall summon the party complained upon by his precept contained the cause of the complaint relevantly libellit and cause summon the persons accused and his cautioner on xv days warning and deliver them copies Concluded incase the officer be found culpable not only his deprivation from the office But his cautioner to Incur the pain whereof the third part shall appertain to the said Lyon king of arms for his labors And that his acts and decrees be formally written and registered and patent to all our sovereign lord’s lieges having interest and suchlike letters conform to pass thereupon as upon the decrees of what summary Judges ordinary within this realm

 

The Lyon King of Arms Act of 1592

Act concerning the office of Lyon king of arms and his brother heralds (1592 cap. 127)

 

(1) Our sovereign Lord and estates of this present parliament Considering the great abuse that has been amongst the lieges of this realm in their bearing of arms usurped to themselves such arms as belong not upon them So that it can not be distinguished by their arms who are gentlemen of blood by their ancestors Nor yet may it be discerned what gentlemen are descended of noble stock and lineage for remand whereof his highness is with advice of the said estates has given and granted and by this present act gives and grants full power and commission to Lyon king of arms and his brother heralds To visit the whole arms of noblemen barons and gentlemen borne and used within this realm And to distinguish and discern them with congruent differences and thereafter to matriculate them in their books and Registers And to put inhibition to all the common sort of people not worthy by the law of arms to bear any ensigns armorial That none of them presume or take upon hand to bear or use any arms in time coming upon any their inside or household gear under the pain of the eschewing of the goods and gear so often as they shall find contravenand this present act wherever the same arms shall be found graven and painted to our sovereign lord’s use And likewise under the pain of one hundred pounds to the use of the said Lyon and his brother heralds And failing of payment thereof That they be incarcerated in the nearest prison Therein to remain upon their own charges during the pleasure of the said Lyon

 

[section 2 repealed by the Scottish Laws Revision Act of 1906]

 

 

(3) ITEM In consideration of the great abuse of messengers and officers of arms within this realm which is for the most part are not qualified for using of the said office Being admitted by extraordinary and Inopportune suites By which abuse the lieges of this realm are heavily troubled and oppressed Therefore It is statute and ordained that the said king of arms be advised of the lords of counsel and session deprive and discharge all such officers and messengers of arms as he shall find unworthy of the office and take sicker souirtie of the remnant for their observation of their Injunctions in time coming With power to the said king of arms with advise of the said lords to enjoin further necessary Injunctions to the said messengers for keeping of good order in their offices ...

 

[sections 3 and 4 repealed by the Scottish Laws Revision Act of 1906]

 

(5) ITEM Last that because the Jurisdiction of the Lyon king of arms is not able to execute due punishment upon all persons that shall happen to offend in the office of arms Therefore our sovereign lord with abuse of his estates in parliament Ordains and commands all civil Magistrates as they shall be required by the king of arms or any others in his Name To concur with him To see the acts made in his favors of his office put to due execution in their jurisdictions As also To concur with him to the punishment and incarceration of all such persons as shall usurp the bearing of his Majesties’ arms after due deprivation under the pain of rebellion and putting of the disobeyers to his highness’ horn With certification to them and they failure being required letters shall be directed simpliciter to put thame to the horn

 

The Lyon King of Arms Act 1672

Act concerning the privileges of the Office of Lyon King at Arms (1672 cap. 47)

(italics indicate sections repealed by the Scottish Laws Revision Act of 1906)

Our Sovereign Lord Considering that albeit by the 125 Act of the 12 Parliament holding by his Majesties’ grandfather in the year 1592 the usurpation of Arms by any of his Majesties’ lieges without the authority of the Lyon King of Arms is expressly discharged And that in order thereto Power and Commission is granted to the Lyon King of Arms or his Deputes to visit the whole Arms of Noblemen Barons and Gentlemen and to matriculate the same in their registers and to fine in One Hundreth pounds all others who shall unjustly usurp Arms who should bear none and many of these who may in law bear have assumed to themselves the Arms of their chief without distinctions or Arms which were not carried by them or their predecessors Therefore His Majesty with advice and consent of his Estates of Parliament Ratifies and Approves the foresaid Act of Parliament And for the more vigorous prosecution thereof Doth hereby Statute and Ordain that letters of publication of this present act be direct to be execute at the mercat cross of the head Burghs of the Shires Stewartries Bailliaries of Royalty and Regalities and Royall Burroughs charging all and sundry [Prelates] Noblemen Barons and Gentlemen who make use of any Arms or Signs armorial within the space of one year after the said publication to bring or send an account of what Arms or Signs armorial they are accustomed to use and whither they be descendants of any family the Arms of which family they bear and of what Brother of the family they are descended With Certificates from persons of Honor Noblemen or Gentlemen of quality anent the verity of their having and using those Arms and of their descent as aforesaid to be delivered either to the Clerk of the Jurisdiction where the persons dwells or to the Lyon Clerk at his office in Edinburgh at the option of the party upon their receipts gratis without paying any thing therefore Which Receipt shall be a sufficient exoneration to them from being obliged to produce again to the effect that the Lyon King of Arms may distinguish the said Arms with congruent differences and may matriculate the same in his Books and Registers and may give Arms to virtuous and well deserving Persons and Extracts of all Arms expressing the blazoning of the Arms under his hand and seal of office [For which shall be paid to the Lyon the soume of Twenty marks by every Prelate and Nobleman, and Ten marks be every Knight and Baron, and Five marks by every other person bearing Arms, and no more:] And his Majesty hereby Dispenses with any penalties that may arise be this or any preceding act for bearing Arms before the Proclamation to be issued hereupon And it is Statute and Ordained with consent foresaid that the said Register shall be respected as the true and unrepeallable rule of all Arms and Bearings in Scotland to remain with the Lyon office as a public Register of the Kingdome and to be transmitted to his Successors in all time coming And that whosoever shall use any other Arms any manner of way after the expiring of year and day from the date of the Proclamation to be issued hereupon in manner foresaid shall pay One Hundred pounds money total quantities to the Lyon and shall likewise escheat to his Majesty all the moveable Goods and Gear upon which the said Arms are engraved or otherwise represented And his Majesty with consent foresaid Declares that it is only allowed for Noblemen [and Bishops] to subscribe by their titles And that all others shall subscribe their Christened names or the initial letter thereof with there Surnames and may if they please adject the designations of their Lands prefixing the word Of to the said designations And the Lyon King at Arms and his Brethren are required to be careful of informing themselves of the contraveners hereof [and that they acquaint his Majesty’s Council therewith, who are hereby empowered to punish them as persons disobedient to, and contraveners of the Law:] It is likewise hereby Declared that the Lyon and his Brethren Heralds are Judges in all such causes concerning the Malversation of Messengers in their office and are to enjoy all other privileges belonging to their Office which are secured to them by the Laws of this Kingdom and according to former practice.

 

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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18 October 2011 14:13
 

Caledonian;89101 wrote:

The Lord Lyon Act of 1587 makes no reference to prosecuting individuals for the use of unregistered arms unique to themselves, nor does the Lord Lyon Act of 1592, which merely forbids anyone from usurping arms belonging to someone else, or from the use of an ancestor’s arms without relevant differencing where applicable, or from making unauthorized use of the Royal Arms on any of their personal possessions.

The 1672 Lord Lyon Act required all those then bearing coats of arms in Scotland to register their arms with Lord Lyon within the space of one year and forbid them thereafter from using different coats of arms from those which they had registered. However there is no clear indication in the 1672 Act that any prosecution could be made against someone for using arms unique to the bearer that were not recorded in Lyon register after the closing of the registration date.


On the contrary.  The indication is crystal clear:

 

"And it is Statute and Ordained with consent forsaid that the said Register shall be respected as the true and unrepeallable rule of all Armes and Bearings in Scotland to remain with the Lyon office as a publict Register of the Kingdome and to be transmitted to his Successors in all tyme comeing And that whosoevir shall use any other Armes any manner of way aftir the expireing of year and day from the date of the Proclamation to be issued hereupon in maner forsaid shall pay One Hundred pounds money toties quoties to the Lyon and shall likewayes escheat to his Maiestie all the moveable Goods and Geir upon which the saids Armes are engraven or otherwise represented."

 

This clearly forbids any use of arms not matriculated in the register ("any other Armes any manner of way").

 
Caledonian
 
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18 October 2011 14:16
 

Joseph McMillan;89110 wrote:

On the contrary.  The indication is crystal clear:

"And it is Statute and Ordained with consent forsaid that the said Register shall be respected as the true and unrepeallable rule of all Armes and Bearings in Scotland to remain with the Lyon office as a publict Register of the Kingdome and to be transmitted to his Successors in all tyme comeing And that whosoevir shall use any other Armes any manner of way aftir the expireing of year and day from the date of the Proclamation to be issued hereupon in maner forsaid shall pay One Hundred pounds money toties quoties to the Lyon and shall likewayes escheat to his Maiestie all the moveable Goods and Geir upon which the saids Armes are engraven or otherwise represented."

 

This clearly forbids any use of arms not matriculated in the register ("any other Armes any manner of way").


Actually it only forbids those who registered arms in Lyon Register from using any arms other than the coat of arms that Lord Lyon has on record for them to use. In other words, it prevented someone back in 1672 from having one coat of arms recorded in Lyon Register, and then going off and using some other coat of arms than what Lyon had recorded.