Cronista de Armas

 
StarScepter
 
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StarScepter
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16 October 2011 09:32
 

Is anyone familiar with why the Spanish government is unwilling to appoint someone to this office? Thank you.

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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27 October 2011 20:29
 

StarScepter;88913 wrote:

Is anyone familiar with why the Spanish government is unwilling to appoint someone to this office? Thank you.


The Royal Decree of 1951 (which in turn cites the Royal Decree of 1915 on the subject of counter signing of the Kings of Arms’ heraldic certifications by the Sub-Secretariat of Grace of the Ministry of Justice) required the then existing Kings of Arms appointed by King Alfonso XIII to be certified in their positions by the Ministry of Justice and such appointments to be published.  No appointments of new heralds were made at the time and none had been made since.  The last herald to have his certifications of arms accepted by the Ministry of Justice was Vicente de Cadenas, who was never officially appointed to his position as contemplated by the Royal Decree.

 

The primary reason that no herald has been appointed seems to be political, and is related to the popular but false understanding in Spain that heraldry is inseparable from nobility.  How odd and ironic when one considers that the Spanish government grants hereditary titles of nobility and few people seem to complain yet heraldry, which in Spain is not tied to nobility is treated as a matter that is too delicate to deal with presently.  Go figure!

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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28 October 2011 07:37
 

Are coats of arms not emblasoned in the patents of nobility or of membership of the orders of knighthood granted by the King (not the Government)? If they are then who is now responsible for their design or approval?

Seb Nelson’s page on Spanish armorial certificates at http://heraldry.freeservers.com/certificates.html says

"Spanish Sovereigns, however, preserved this right [of granting arms] and new armorial bearings could (and still can) only be granted by a certification authorized, manu regia, by the King [2]"

(fn 2 refers to Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Heraldos y Reyes de Armas en la Corte de España, Prensa y Ediciones Iberoamericanas S.A., Madrid, 1993, p.427.

The Spanish Kings of arms seemingly had no authority to grant arms themselves. Perhaps those Spanish citizens wishing to have an official grant should apply to the King directly?

 

Derek Howard

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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28 October 2011 08:20
 

Derek Howard;89408 wrote:

Seb Nelson’s page on Spanish armorial certificates at http://heraldry.freeservers.com/certificates.html says

"Spanish Sovereigns, however, preserved this right [of granting arms] and new armorial bearings could (and still can) only be granted by a certification authorized, manu regia, by the King [2]"

(fn 2 refers to Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Heraldos y Reyes de Armas en la Corte de España, Prensa y Ediciones Iberoamericanas S.A., Madrid, 1993, p.427.


Unfortunately the Spanish Council of State (the country’s highest administrative court) says don Alfonso is in error about this. In an advisory opinion of 21 October 2004, which involved a request by a nobiliary society for the King to confirm its ancient arms, the Council found that:

 

- "The Crown does not grant arms or authorize the use of arms granted in former times."

 

- "Current legislation does not contemplate any royal power to grant or confirm the right to the use of coats of arms. The power to grant honors and distinctions recognized by art. 62(f) of the Constitution has to be exercised according to the constitutional precept ‘as regulated by law’, that being understood to include the entire range of legal and regulatory dispositions that comprise the juricial regime on this subject. In contrast to the preceding Constitutions, which presupposed the existence of an almost absolute royal power to grant honors and distinctions of all types, at present this power is confined to that established within the legal order, and its exercise is subject to ministerial advice, which precludes any legal lacunae from being interpreted as implicitly attributing to the Monarch any undefined or excessive power." (Citing a previous decision 1590/96)

 

- "This Council of State understands that the use of arms and blazons belongs to the private sphere and that consequently the Ministry of Justice should not elevate to H.M. the King the request for confirmation of the right to use any given arms or blazons of individuals or families or, as in this case, of a comunidad de bienes." (A comunidad de bienes is a type of Spanish organization sharing property or rights, similar to a partnership.)

 

I would suggest that don Alfonso’s statement needs to be taken in the context of his failed campaign, which was in full swing at the time of writing, to achieve recognition from the Ministry of Justice as a cronista with the power to certify personal arms. The Council of State’s rejection of his argument on that front came two years after the publication of his book.

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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28 October 2011 23:20
 

Quote:

Are coats of arms not emblasoned in the patents of nobility or of membership of the orders of knighthood granted by the King (not the Government)? If they are then who is now responsible for their design or approval?


Hi Derek,

 

I find these armorial documents (for lack of a better word) extremely interesting!  The link you posted includes a picture of the armorial document (http://heraldry.freeservers.com/Grant.jpg) signed by King Juan Carlos in 1992 when Sabino Fernandez Campo was made Conde de Latores [1].  Jose Rangel has some interesting images of similar documents on his blog.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gTQCiRKlM-U/TPg1-3S7xcI/AAAAAAAASgE/bIApcxlHHOA/s1600/C+13.jpg

 

Here is an armorial document signed by the King regarding Emilio Garcia Gomez, who was made Conde de los Alixares [2].

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gTQCiRKlM-U/TPg03ZU_3zI/AAAAAAAASf4/Jx0Fapb5du4/s1600/C+12.jpg

 

Here is an armorial document signed by the King in 1993 regarding Admiral Fernando Poole Perez-Pardo.  He was, I think, Head of the Military Chamber (El Jefe del Cuarto Militar) of the Spanish Royal Household at the time.

 

I wish I knew more about these documents.  There are apparently other Spaniards who received titles from King Juan Carlos who apparently use(d) arms, and their blazons suggest (at least to me) that they are new designs (as opposed to inherited arms).  For example, here are the arms of Camilo Jose Cela, [3] who was made Marques de Iria Flavia in 1996.

 

http://books.google.es/books?id=-BaroMfdQd0C&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=En+campo+de+azur+dos+plumas+de+oro+dispuestas+en+aspa,+acompañadas+de+tres+veneras+de+plata,+una+en+cada+flanco+y+otra+en+punta,+y+en+el+jefe+una+estrella+de+ocho+puntas+de+oro.&source=bl&ots=da-MzL75wf&sig=ChiMHY1t2_gDX4y35x1jFyzeqsA&hl=es&ei=Q5gPTKjiO5SW4gafqLyxDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=En campo de azur dos plumas de oro dispuestas en aspa, acompañadas de tres veneras de plata, una en cada flanco y otra en punta, y en el jefe una estrella de ocho puntas de oro.&f=false

 

Joan Oro Florensa, [4] who was made Marques de Oro in 2003, had interesting arms, according to "Repertori de grandeses, títols i corporacions nobiliàries de Catalunya 2" (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/237806907).  Here is an image of the arms: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Escut_del_Marquès_d’Oró.svg

 

I wish I knew if the King signed armorial documents for the Marques de Iria Flavia and the Marques de Oro too.

 

[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/royalty-obituaries/6545780/The-Count-of-Latores.html

 

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilio_García_Gómez

 

[3]http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/101160/Camilo-Jose-Cela

 

[4]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/sep/09/guardianobituaries.obituaries

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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29 October 2011 01:39
 

Thanks Joe and Seb. This is all new material to me. So, the King cannot now grant or authorise arms, he does however recognise arms (to use a term from Scotland). I still wonder who he turns to when appointing to Orders or granting nobility to organise the armorial display. Any ideas of the artists concerned? Perhaps the Royal chancery can advise?

Derek Howard

 
Derek Howard
 
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13 November 2011 06:28
 

Inspired by another thread I looked up the powers of Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila on Wikipaedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_Ceballos-Escalera_y_Gil and of the Cronista Rey de Armas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronista_Rey_de_Armas.

It appears that he acts not as Cronista de Armas of Spain, as you have pointed out the courts have ruled against that power residing with the Crown, but as Cronista de Castile and León. He acts under the authority of legislation of the Junta of Castile and León related to the granting of arms to local authorities: DECRETO 105/1991, de 9 de mayo, por el que se regula el procedimiento y normas heráldicas de aprobación, modificación y rehabilitación de escudos y banderas municipales, which is to be found in the Junta’s official Bulletin 92/1991 of 16 May 1991 see http://bocyl.jcyl.es/boletines/1991/05/16/pdf/BOCYL-D-16051991-3.pdf.

 

I have had a quick read of this decree and at Article 16 it states that « El Cronista de Armas de Castilla y León …. y ostentará las facultades y competencias tradicionales de los antiguos Cronistas, Reyes de Armas y Heraldos de Castilla y León, contenidas en el Real Decreto de 29 de julio de 1915, y el Decreto de 13 de abril de 1951». I.e. that “the The Chronicler of Arms of Castile and Leon … shall enjoy the powers and traditional skills of the ancient chroniclers, Kings of Arms and Heralds of Castile and Leon, contained in Royal Decree of July 29, 1915, and Decree of April 13, 1951”.

 

Now, notwithstanding that the main tenor or 105/91 relates to public bodies, if the former Chroiclers of Arms of C&L had authority to make grants of arms to private individuals and matters armorial have now been delegated to the regional governments, what is the legal argumentation that he cannot so do without reference to the Ministry of Justice which is not required under C&L decree 105/91?

 

Derek Howard

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 November 2011 09:23
 

Derek Howard;89910 wrote:

Now, notwithstanding that the main tenor or 105/91 relates to public bodies, if the former Chroiclers of Arms of C&L had authority to make grants of arms to private individuals and matters armorial have now been delegated to the regional governments, what is the legal argumentation that he cannot so do without reference to the Ministry of Justice which is not required under C&L decree 105/91?


Matters armorial in general have not been delegated to the regional governments, only those relating to the arms of provinces and municipalities. The authority for the Autonomous Community of Castille and Leon is paragraph 3.1 of Annex I of Royal Decree 3036/1982 of 24 July 1982. The full text can be read at http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1982-29848. The critical passage is


Quote:

Se transfieren al Consejo General de Castilla y de León, dentro de su respectivo ámbito territorial y en los términos del presente acuerdo, la ejecución de las siguientes competencias y funciones:

***

3.1 ... la aprobación de Escudos Heráldicos municipales, previo informe de la Real Academia de la Historia.


In English:
Quote:

The execution of the following competencies and functions within its respective territorial boundaries and according to the terms of the present accord is transferred to the Council General of Castille and Leon:

***

3.1. ... the approval of municipal heraldic arms, with the advice of the Royal Academy of History.


This was addressed by the Council of State in the same opinion cited above. The Council found that the government of Castille and Leon had exceeded its authority in purporting to grant the Marques de la Floresta any powers over heraldry exceeding those in the 1982 decree.  All powers not so delegated were reserved to the Ministry of Justice and could only be exercised, under the 1915 and 1951 decrees, by cronistas appointed by the Ministry of Justice.

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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13 November 2011 12:34
 

Thanks again, Joe, for the clarification.

Derek

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 November 2011 14:37
 

A small correction:  it was not in its decision concerning the King’s lack of power to grant arms that the Consejo de Estado addressed the limitated nature of the autonomous communities’ authority over heraldry, but in its earlier decision denying the validity of the Marques de la Floresta’s activities as a chronicler of personal arms.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 November 2011 23:30
 

so, am i correct in understanding that the king of spain does not have the right to appoint a cronista to grant arms, but does have the power to grant arms individually? or did i get that all messed up?

 
Derek Howard
 
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14 November 2011 05:02
 

Thanks. Are these the only two relevant cases? -

Case 2437/1995 of 30 Nov 1995 is here:

http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=1995-2437

 

Case 1590/1996 of 20 June 1996 here:

http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=1996-1590

 

Derek Howard

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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14 November 2011 08:01
 

Donnchadh;89926 wrote:

so, am i correct in understanding that the king of spain does not have the right to appoint a cronista to grant arms, but does have the power to grant arms individually? or did i get that all messed up?


He can do neither as the law stands at present, according to the Council of State, which is Spain’s highest court for matters of administrative law.  The power to appoint cronistas is vested in the Minister of Justice.  The parliament could pass a law empowering the king to grant arms, and the king could (with the concurrence of his ministers) issue a new royal decree altering the procedures for appointing cronistas, but until and unless one of those things happens, the king appears to have no role in heraldry.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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14 November 2011 08:16
 

Derek Howard;89932 wrote:

Thanks. Are these the only two relevant cases? -

Case 2437/1995 of 30 Nov 1995 is here:

http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=1995-2437

 

Case 1590/1996 of 20 June 1996 here:

http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=1996-1590

 

Derek Howard


I wasn’t aware of the 1996 case at all; will look at it tonight.  The 2004 opinion concerning the king’s inability to grant arms is at http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=2004-2047

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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14 November 2011 11:58
 

Joseph McMillan;89934 wrote:

I wasn’t aware of the 1996 case at all; will look at it tonight.

It was cited in your post at #4 above. I have not yet had time to study it either.
Joseph McMillan;89934 wrote:

The 2004 opinion concerning the king’s inability to grant arms is at http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos_ce/doc.php?coleccion=ce&id=2004-2047

Thanks for that. Has this all been written up comprehensively somewhere already or is there a case for another one of your definitive articles wink

Derek Howard

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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14 November 2011 12:36
 

Derek Howard;89938 wrote:

It was cited in your post at #4 above. I have not yet had time to study it either. Thanks for that. Has this all been written up comprehensively somewhere already or is there a case for another one of your definitive articles :D