Nick B II;94019 wrote:
What’s happened is pretty simple: the Russians don’t particularly want any post-Soviet states to leave their strategic sphere-of-interest, which means any regional designation that adds Finland to the Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania bloc either reduces Finland’s ability to defy Russia (by adding it to the Russian sphere) or forces the Russians to take stern action because it increases Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania’s ability to defy Russia.
Really? Gee, I wonder how the Russians would take the Baltic states’ joining NATO or the European Union, then. Oh, wait, they already did that.
Joseph McMillan;94025 wrote:
Really? Gee, I wonder how the Russians would take the Baltic states’ joining NATO or the European Union, then. Oh, wait, they already did that.
Disproving a minor point.
An excellent play.
However you implicitly admitted that politically and culturally the Baltic states are more Nordic then Baltic, and therefore your own insistence that nobody should even post on the internet that they are Nordic was flawed.
Nick
Estonia wanting to be considered a Scandinavian/Nordic country is one of the running jokes in the web comic Scandinavia and the World.
http://satwcomic.com/new-nordic
This is also the source of perhaps my favorite heraldic comic.
http://satwcomic.com/coat-of-arms
Joseph McMillan;94013 wrote:
Except that Estonia is neither Scandinavian nor Nordic.
How did we get from "Daughter’s New Arms" to "Estonia [is/isn’t] Scandinavian/Nordic"??
I love this place! 
Nick B II;94026 wrote:
[...]politically and culturally the Baltic states are more Nordic then Baltic[...]
This seems to be a play of immaterial generalisations. But first of all, it is the generalisation which makes the three states "Baltic" which matters, and this definition is a self-identification of these three nations: after all, they are the good neighbours and the natural allies in the struggle against the Soviet burden. To see the "Baltic" concept as Russian-imposed on the three modern States (or even as a pro-Kremlin project) is simply an error.
The so-called "Baltic" parts of the pre-revolution Russia were the three Ostsee-provinces (Curonia, Livonia and Estonia) as well as Carelia (widely defined); as a territorial "stripe", this even included St Petersburg.
Neither Lithuania nor Latgalia (Latvian lands most tied to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, now a part of Latvia) were on this "Baltic" list. They were considered as parts of the historical Lithuanian/Bielorussian unity.
In the 20th century however the "Baltic" region was redefined step by step, reflecting the geo-political realities of the times. If they will change again, the definition may become obsolete, but this most likely did not happen yet. In Estonia, various attempts to "Skandinavise" the symbols of the national identity (the flag and even the name: "Estonia" to "Estland") did not receive any considerable public support.
By the way, the navy jacks of Estonia and Latvia follow the Russian pattern, the navy flag of Latvia and the presidential Latvian flag are rather "Scandinavian", the navy flag of Lithuania echoes both the Russian navy flag as well as the Scandinavian and German [Imperial navy] crosses. Just for comparison, the navy flag of Ukraine is a re-coloured reproduction of the Imperial German navy flag (the IWW legacy) and thus appears rather close to the Scandinavian state flags. It is all complicated as it should be in the real life
Joseph McMillan;94024 wrote:
Ooooo….not only Wikipedia, but "Citation_needed."
Here, ya go: http://web-static.vm.ee/static/failid/220/eesti_elu.pdf
as referenced at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries#Estonia
Michael F. McCartney;94031 wrote:
How did we get from "Daughter’s New Arms" to "Estonia [is/isn’t] Scandinavian/Nordic"??
I love this place!
Me too!
Not what I had in mind. But considering that the nordic cross is beeing used also by Vepsians, Ingrians and Karelians and the fact that the proposed Baltic Duchy was to use a black nordic cross on it’s flag, it’s fare enough to say that the nordic cross pattern is a traditional pattern for the wider area.
Vepsia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Flag_of_Vepsia.svg
Ingria
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Inkerin_lippu.svg
East Karelia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/KarelianNationalFlag.svg
Joseph McMillan;94024 wrote:
If speaking a Finno-Ugric language makes a country Nordic, then we’ll have to design a "Nordic"-style flag for Hungary as well.
Not what I had in mind. But considering that the nordic cross is beeing used also by Vepsians, Ingrians and Karelians and the fact that the proposed Baltic Duchy was to use a black nordic cross on it’s flag, it’s fare enough to say that the nordic cross pattern is a traditional pattern for the wider area.
Vepsia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Flag_of_Vepsia.svg
Ingria
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Inkerin_lippu.svg
East Karelia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/KarelianNationalFlag.svg
United Baltic Duchy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/United_Baltic_Duchy_flag.svg
Michael Y. Medvedev;94036 wrote:
In the 20th century however the "Baltic" region was redefined step by step, reflecting the geo-political realities of the times. If they will change again, the definition may become obsolete, but this most likely did not happen yet. In Estonia, various attempts to "Skandinavise" the symbols of the national identity (the flag and even the name: "Estonia" to "Estland") did not receive any considerable public support.
The President of the country seems to think Estonia as a Nordic nation has plenty of public support. He gave a speech with that exact title in 1999 when he was Minister of Foreign Affairs. The speech is still available on the official Ministry website:
Which doesn’t really prove that Estonians think the country is Nordic, but does seem to indicate that claiming Estonia is Nordic will not enrage so many Estonians with it’s ridiculousness that it will end your political career.
And if that’s the case there’s no reason for Joe to jump down Steven Harris’ throat for posting a Nordic Cross variant of the Estonian flag.
sterios;94055 wrote:
Not what I had in mind. But considering that the nordic cross is beeing used also by Vepsians, Ingrians and Karelians and the fact that the proposed Baltic Duchy was to use a black nordic cross on it’s flag, it’s fare enough to say that the nordic cross pattern is a traditional pattern for the wider area.
It’s not just the Finno-Uggrics of the region. Multiple German flags used the Nordic Cross. The only official one representing a "country" was the one for the tiny Saar Protectorate, which was a bit of Germany bordering France the Allies insisted on trying to make an independent country after WW2, but there was also a Naval Jack in the brief North German Federation, and the Nazi War Ensign.
The Saar flag makes any attempt to nail down the precise users of the Nordic Cross flags problematic. Saarland’s 60%+ Catholic, and a long-ass way from the Nordic countries. It’s also a long way from the Baltic.
It just seems that getting a flag that actually looks unique while restricting yourself to tricolors is really hard, so considering other schemes (like the Nordic Cross) makes a lot of sense.
Nick
