how would this be blazoned?

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
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23 June 2012 17:35
 

In my palette, there are only three blue tinctures: bleu celeste, and azure (all other shades besides sky blue)... and that really dark blue sometimes used by the Department of the Army’s TIOH which I can’t recall what they labeled it right now. I agree with Doug that you shouldn’t have any compunction about choosing bleu celeste, tenne, sanguine, murrey, buff (another TIOH one) or any other commonly known "alternative" tincture (stain or whatever). I do advise against using something no one has heard of or is little known because being intentionally obscure is an act which opposes what true heraldry is all about. If you do use something little known, make sure there is a very good reason and plan on defending the idea against all comers as there is a price to pay for taking the road less travelled.

Keep in mind that choosing non-standard tinctures may result in your blazon not being recognized by certain heraldic "authorities" abroad. Not that much of a problem as you can always alter your arms slightly (say changing sky blue to azure) to fit a foreign jurisdiction should it ever become an issue.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 June 2012 21:13
 

Any shade of blue is Azure. Garter Wagner said so when the U.S. Department of State asked whether there was any particular shade of blue in which the chief of the U.S. national arms should be emblazoned to be heraldically correct. Compare the shade of blue in the arms as used by the President:

http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/images/seal-presidential-color.gif

 

the Vice President:

 

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/amgov/3234/Week_4_Oct_2011/10252011_AP111024127958-300.jpg

 

and the Department of State (on the departmental flag to Toria Nuland’s left):

 

http://preview.thenewsmarket.com/Previews/USDS/VideoAssets/RepFrames/Large/USDS_22546_243133_v2.jpg

 

All are blazoned the same way, "a chief Azure."

 

As for TIOH practice: they do follow the lead of the College of Arms in using "bleu celeste," but in other cases where the shade is specified it is because the facing colors of a particular branch of the army are a particular shade of blue (e.g., cobalt blue for the Chemical Corps). In these cases, regimental or battalion arms are typically blazoned "Azure (cobalt blue)..." to make clear that insignia, regimental colors, and so on are to be emblazoned with this specific shade. But heraldically they’re still all Azure.

 

Finally, the lack of heraldic regulation in the U.S. (or anywhere else) is no excuse for license. We don’t have poetic regulation either, but that doesn’t make it acceptable to call a limerick a sonnet.

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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24 June 2012 14:20
 

What’s the Nordic rule, that good arms should only have five elements?

This proposal has three tinctures, two fields, and the enarched piles/wolf’s teeth. That’s six. So these are not complex arms.

 

I wouldn’t call them particularly busy either. The rendering looks that way because he uses the same shade of blue throughout, so it takes a second for you to figure out that it’s the clouds above the sea separated by the piles.

 

But if he made the nebuly blue celeste and the wavy bit a more typical shade of azure…

 

As for the tenne, I hate it in principle, but like it on this particular CoA. It has to contrast with both the white and the blue of the fields, which means it’s got to contrast with both a metal and a color.

 

All in all the only problems I have with it are that it basically requires a bunch of non-standard colors (ie: both azure and bleu celeste instead of picking one, and also the stain tenne), and that the rendering isn’t great.

 

Nick

 
j.carrasco
 
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j.carrasco
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24 June 2012 16:56
 

dex;94245 wrote:

Thanks Jeffery..this design was someting i was playing with…..still working with designs…ive probably made over a dozen maybe more.

rules…...:rolleyes:


Charlie, have you paid for a membership AHS?  If so, we can move this to the private forum and everyone will be able to help you with the design.  If you haven’t paid for a membership I would highly recommend it.  I’m pretty sure everyone has some ideas they’d want to share (myself included).  I can tell that everyone is wanting to help you but can’t because of this. Think about it.  wink

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
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24 June 2012 19:38
 

Nick B II;94256 wrote:

What’s the Nordic rule, that good arms should only have five elements?

This proposal has three tinctures, two fields, and the enarched piles/wolf’s teeth. That’s six. So these are not complex arms.


Nick, I use basically the same criteria as one of the better methods for rating arms, the five point principle (which I basically borrowed from SCA heralds).

 

There are EXCEPTIONS to every situation though, and this is a case which pushes the limit slightly IMO. The barry wavy pushed up against a barry nebuly is an innovative design, especially per bend, and would look great by itself or with a non-obtrusive charge, however, when putting on top of that, another relatively original and unique design, the enarched piles, you have the foreground charges creating wierd lines/geometry and the background lines creating wierd lines/geometry, none of which are actually very complimentary to each other (there is a consistency in that all lines are curved, which is a design plus, but it’s just not enough).

 

I admit that some of the ideas he has here still qualify as brilliant. I would elaborate further on how to make this work really well from my point of view, but rules are rules you know. smile

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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25 June 2012 12:19
 

I like the black more than the orange (just not a fan of orange in heraldry), but either way I like the design. I think it is innovative. Even if the result seems a bit busy at first glance, it is not so complex that it cannot be well illustrated (as has been shown already).

 
 
Benjamin Thornton
 
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Benjamin Thornton
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25 June 2012 14:19
 

This is entirely personal preference, but if you kept the nebully and wavy bars but partitioned it per bend (not enarched) with a bend gules (or tenne, if you prefer) overall,  I think you’d have some very distinctive arms that still felt a bit classical.

But I am merely one voice crying out in the wilderness.

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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26 June 2012 11:29
 

While this design does rather dazzle and confuse the eye, I like it for its originality. I don’t think I would like it as well if it looked more classical. Heraldry for the 21st Century!

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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26 June 2012 17:15
 

Father, seconded… although from the European Continent it looks less unique and new… which in its turn may be not bad at all smile

 
dex1
 
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dex1
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28 June 2012 01:27
 

Doug Welsh;94248 wrote:

The "Heraldry Police" have no authority in the USA.  Blason it as "Bleu celeste" and ignore those who bitch.


i like the way you think

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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28 June 2012 08:45
 

dex;94240 wrote:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh109/cdex85/d1-4.jpg

I actually quite like this. My first thought was shades of palm leaves over lagoon with choppy sea beyond the reef. A Pacific image and therefore quite American.

 
j.carrasco
 
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j.carrasco
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28 June 2012 11:10
 

Derek Howard;94301 wrote:

I actually quite like this. My first thought was shades of palm leaves over lagoon with choppy sea beyond the reef. A Pacific image and therefore quite American.


I hadnt thought of that before but now that you mention it it does look like that.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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28 June 2012 12:14
 

Doug Welsh;94248 wrote:

The "Heraldry Police" have no authority in the USA. Blason it as "Bleu celeste" and ignore those who bitch.


Sure, and while you’re at it, add lavender as a pastel version of purpure and chartreuse to go along with vert.  And why stop there?  It’s the digital age—how exclusionary is it to limit ourselves to seven tinctures and exclude all the other 16,777,209 possible red-green-blue combinations available in the digital palette?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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28 June 2012 14:00
 

Joseph McMillan;94307 wrote:

Sure, and while you’re at it, add lavender as a pastel version of purpure and chartreuse to go along with vert.  And why stop there?  It’s the digital age—how exclusionary is it to limit ourselves to seven tinctures and exclude all the other 16,777,209 possible red-green-blue combinations available in the digital palette?


I quite agree. The only time I think one ought to denote the shade of blue is when both a dark and light shade are used as in the arms of Barnes Borough Council

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Arms-barnes.JPG

source

 

or the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Arms-richmond-lb.jpg

source

 

In both instances light blue and dark blue oars represent the crews in the University Boat Race (Oxford v. Cambridge) and in both cases they are blazoned as "light blue" and "dark blue" to differentiate the shades of Azure.

 
 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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28 June 2012 15:59
 

Well…FWIW, Joe, I think one can draw a distinction between one (already used elsewhere for decades) shade of blue, and 16+ million possible digital colors.  "Slippery slope" is a valid concern, but really…