Mantling - Cloth or robe?

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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01 July 2012 09:52
 

OK - so, I get into this discussion on Facebook about mantling where the other participant claims The mantle was ORIGINALLY a robe or cape which artists eventually depicted as a cloth and it is unique from the torse or wreath and served different functions.

Looking here I find in section 2.1.4 http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Guide.Guidelines#toc3 That the mantling is a cloth.. not to be confused with a robe…

 

Further searches online find contradictory information that a mantle started as a cloth which developed into a robe or that a mantle started as a robe that developed into a cloth…  None have any reasonable referencing and I get the feeling part of the issue is the use of the term mantle. On dictionary.com it’s a cloak…

 

So - can anyone provide anything more or less definitive as to the mantle - it’s history, definition and where the (my?) confusion comes from?

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
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Jeremy Keith Hammond
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01 July 2012 11:15
 

I don’t have a reference as evidence, but as I understood it, the mantle was a bit of cloth draped over the back of the metal helmet to keep the hot sun from cooking a knight’s head.

Update: I checked Brooke-Little. He gives some credit to theories that suggest it was just ornamentation devised by artists to fill blank space, but then goes on to describe exactly what I mentioned. Though he expands a bit reminding us that heraldry has roots in the crusades when European knights battled in hot middle eastern climates.

 

Further he mentions that cloth does a reasonable job entangling blades and that mantling served a bit like armor and that is why you’ll often see depictions of mantling shred into strips as if it had been ripped in battle.

 
Arthur Radburn
 
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Arthur Radburn
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01 July 2012 11:39
 

‘Mantling’ and a ‘mantle’ are two different things with confusingly similar names.

Mantling a.k.a. ‘lambrequin’ is draped over the helmet and held in place by the wreath a.k.a. ‘torse’.  Friar’s New Dictionary of Heraldry (1987) describes it as "a protective cloth affixed to the helmet", and explains that "almost certainly the mantling originated in the Holy Land where it was worn by crusading knights to absorb the sun’s heat".  Other standard works, such as Brooke-Little’s as noted by Jeremy, explain the mantling in similar vein.  In reality, it would have hung down to the shoulder blades, and there’s a Scottish style of emblazonment which depicts the mantling hanging in folds, rather than the usual curls and swirls, to a little way below the lower edge of the helmet.  James Dempster’s and Joseph McMillan’s arms in the AHS members’ gallery are good examples.

 

A mantle is a robe draped over the shoulders and reaching down to the feet. Friar describes it as "a ceremonial or parliamentary robe worn by sovereigns, royal princes and dukes, members of the nobility, the baronage of Scotland, and certain orders of chivalry".  It’s also known as a ‘robe of estate’, and one often sees it behind the arms of European nobles, and the Scottish feudal barons.  A fancier version, called a ‘pavilion’, is used by some European monarchs, e.g. Netherlands.

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
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Jeremy Keith Hammond
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01 July 2012 11:43
 

Good catch! I am often guilty of that mistake.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 July 2012 11:46
 

A mantle is the same thing as a robe.  It’s usually red or purple lined with fur, and is draped behind the entire achievement, sometimes topped with a coronet or crown.  The arms of Princess Catharina of the Netherlands have a mantle and no mantling:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/Jan-Maarten2/wapen_kinderen2.jpg

 

Mantling is the same thing as a lambrequin.  It’s the cloth that hangs down from the back of the helmet and is usually (but not always) of the principal color and metal in the arms.  This emblazonment of the arms of the Duke of Cambridge has mantling but no mantle (gold lined ermine for a royal prince according to English practice):

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/52255000/jpg/_52255533_011793402-1.jpg

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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01 July 2012 17:05
 

Thanks Gentlemen, it appears the discussion ensued based on my lack of knowledge that mantling and mantle are not interchangeable (lack of precision on my part)...

 
James Dempster
 
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02 July 2012 01:18
 

At the risk of egg on face when someone proves me wrong, the ending "in/ing" is a diminutive form so mantling is a little mantle (the little mantle for the helm as opposed to the large mantle for the body?).

James

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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02 July 2012 02:50
 

Philologically, I was told (and am inclined to presume) that the difference originated in the role of the correspondent elements. Robe is indeed a self-standing element. Mantling is a bit different - having no stable form and being structurally subordinated to the helmet, it is more of "what happens to the helmet" than of a "real" element.

Similarly, the mantling’s lining is not a small line smile

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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02 July 2012 02:56
 

Meanwhile the Continental traditions do mix, from time to time, the mantling and the robe; among other intermediary forms, a robe may be borne in lieu of a mantling, being attached to the helmet.

Here is what I believe to be the most famous example:

http://www.foudemonnaies.com/images/armoiries.second.empire.JPG

Sometimes this appears (in the formal aspect) to be still a robe (as above); and sometimes a special, exclusively honourable kind of a mantling.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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02 July 2012 08:49
 

Michael Y. Medvedev;94365 wrote:

Meanwhile the Continental traditions do mix, from time to time, the mantling and the robe; among other intermediary forms, a robe may be borne in lieu of a mantling, being attached to the helmet.

Here is what I believe to be the most famous example:

http://www.foudemonnaies.com/images/armoiries.second.empire.JPG

Sometimes this appears (in the formal aspect) to be still a robe (as above); and sometimes a special, exclusively honourable kind of a mantling.


Of course nothing Napoleonic should serve as a positive precedent, except the code and the pastry.

 
steven harris
 
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02 July 2012 12:34
 

Arthur Radburn;94354 wrote:

‘Mantling’ and a ‘mantle’ are two different things with confusingly similar names.

Mantling a.k.a. ‘lambrequin’ is draped over the helmet and held in place by the wreath a.k.a. ‘torse’.  Friar’s New Dictionary of Heraldry (1987) describes it as "a protective cloth affixed to the helmet", and explains that "almost certainly the mantling originated in the Holy Land where it was worn by crusading knights to absorb the sun’s heat".  Other standard works, such as Brooke-Little’s as noted by Jeremy, explain the mantling in similar vein.  In reality, it would have hung down to the shoulder blades, and there’s a Scottish style of emblazonment which depicts the mantling hanging in folds, rather than the usual curls and swirls, to a little way below the lower edge of the helmet.  James Dempster’s and Joseph McMillan’s arms in the AHS members’ gallery are good examples.

 

A mantle is a robe draped over the shoulders and reaching down to the feet. Friar describes it as "a ceremonial or parliamentary robe worn by sovereigns, royal princes and dukes, members of the nobility, the baronage of Scotland, and certain orders of chivalry".  It’s also known as a ‘robe of estate’, and one often sees it behind the arms of European nobles, and the Scottish feudal barons.  A fancier version, called a ‘pavilion’, is used by some European monarchs, e.g. Netherlands.


Very clear, thank you Arthur!

 
steven harris
 
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02 July 2012 12:50
 

Oddly, I am also having a debate, similar enough to be included.

Can the color-doubled-metal of the mantling be different from the color-and-metal of the torse?  I had always assumed that one was just an extension of the other – thus they would match each other – but now am being debated that the two are quite separate and can therefore be blazoned differently. :confused:

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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02 July 2012 13:26
 

steven harris;94376 wrote:

Oddly, I am also having a debate, similar enough to be included.

Can the color-doubled-metal of the mantling be different from the color-and-metal of the torse? I had always assumed that one was just an extension of the other – thus they would match each other – but now am being debated that the two are quite separate and can therefore be blazoned differently. :confused:


Yes, they can be different.  In England from the Renaissance period up to the late 1700s, Scotland up to the late 1800s, and Ireland up to today, mantling was normally Gules doubled Argent but the torse was of the principal color and metal of the shield.

 
steven harris
 
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02 July 2012 13:30
 

Joseph McMillan;94377 wrote:

Yes, they can be different.  In England from the Renaissance period up to the late 1700s, Scotland up to the late 1800s, and Ireland up to today, mantling was normally Gules doubled Argent but the torse was of the principal color and metal of the shield.


Then I stand corrected (for neither the first, nor the last time).

 

Do you have an example of such a design? I imagine that it would look rather incongruous.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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02 July 2012 14:14
 

Here are some examples from the Chief Herald of Ireland’s website:

http://www.nli.ie/MSS/GrantsOfArms/601.jpg

http://www.nli.ie/MSS/GrantsOfArms/603.jpg

source

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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02 July 2012 15:09
 

Re incongruity:  I’ve never seen exactly how all these things were attached to the real helmet, but I conceptualize the torse and mantling as functioning more or less like the Arab iqal and ghutrah.  The iqal (=torse) and ghutrah (=lambrequin) are rarely the same color and never of the same material.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Bahrain_potter_making_vases.jpg/245px-Bahrain_potter_making_vases.jpg