New Archbishop of Canterbury

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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07 November 2012 22:10
 

If the rumors are true the new Archbishop of Canterbury (the current Bishop of Durham, Justin Welby) will be announced Thursday or Friday. His arms as Archbishop:

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/8840/arms00011b.jpg

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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08 November 2012 05:55
 

The Rt. Revd. Justin Portal Welby must therefore descend from the family of Welby of Multon and their various branches, co. Lincoln, who bore: Sable a fess between three fleurs-de-lis Argent. See “Lincolnshire Pedigrees”, vol. 3, ed. A R Maddison, pub. Harleian Soc., v LII, 1904, pp 1053-58.

http://archive.org/stream/lincolnshireped00larkgoog#page/n312/

The Welbys can also be found in Cooke’s Visitation of Lincolnshire 1562 http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00cook#page/n275/

 

DBA, v 3, shows a number of instances of these arms being recorded in the 15th century.

 

It would be interesting to know what the Bishop of Durham’s connection is.

 

Derek Howard

 
JamesD
 
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JamesD
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08 November 2012 07:52
 

Derek Howard;96491 wrote:

It would be interesting to know what the Bishop of Durham’s connection is.


The 1929 edition of Armorial Families (p2058, top right) brings us closer to the present and so offers further clues:

 

http://archive.org/stream/armorialfamilies02foxd#page/2058/mode/1up

 

However, an article in the Daily Mail suggests that his father was born c1912 (he doesn’t appear in the 1911 census, it would seem) and, on my reading of Armorial Families, he isn’t connected with the family discussed therein. btw Bishop Welby’s father was a colourful character, according to this account, with some ‘interesting’ American connections!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163801/Bishop-Durham-Justin-Welby-My-father-bootlegger-profited-selling-Communion-wine.html

 

Edited to add: thepeerage.com indicates that his father’s father was called B. James Welby, a name which, as far as I can tell, doesn’t appear in the Armorial Families entry.

 

http://thepeerage.com/p8009.htm#i80089

 

It should go without saying that there is no reason why, just because he isn’t mentioned here, that Bishop Welby should not be descended from the original armiger who appears in the visitations of 1562. As cadency marks are rare in English heraldry, there should be no expectation that he would use differenced arms if he was from a cadet branch, of course.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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08 November 2012 09:30
 

Sable a fess between three fleurs-de-lis Argent - heraldry doesn’t get much better than that!

 
Arthur Radburn
 
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Arthur Radburn
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08 November 2012 12:58
 

steven harris;96493 wrote:

Sable a fess between three fleurs-de-lis Argent - heraldry doesn’t get much better than that!

No, it certainly doesn’t.

According to Foster’s Feudal Coats of Arms, these arms were borne by Sir William Welby in the reign of King Edward I (1272-1307), so this is very much a medieval design from the days before ‘paper heraldry’.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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08 November 2012 15:57
 

These impaled arms would IMO make a useful "object lesson" for new bishops looking to assume new personal arms to impale with those of their diocese—hopefully as a counter to some (many) of the overly-busy Clutterbuck designs assumed by some of the other new bishops we’ve seen.

 
Derek Howard
 
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08 November 2012 17:52
 

Arthur Radburn;96496 wrote:

According to Foster’s Feudal Coats of Arms, these arms were borne by Sir William Welby in the reign of King Edward I (1272-1307), so this is very much a medieval design from the days before ‘paper heraldry’.

I would caution care with using Foster. We should always dig down for the primary sources. For instance, your quote comes from p. 261:

http://archive.org/stream/somefeudalcoats01fostgoog#page/n338/

However, if you read his introduction, at p. x, you will note that the Welby entry is taken not from the rolls of arms he uses for other entries but from: E P Shirley: "Noble and Gentle Men of England", 1859, p 128:

http://archive.org/stream/noblegentlemenof00shiruoft#page/128/

where Shirley only refers for the arms to the 1562 visitation.

 

In turn Shirley’s principal source is [Welby]: "Notices of the Family of Welby", 1842, where, though we might expect knights at an earlier date to have had arms and by the reign of Henry VII members of the family are described as "armiger" and there is mention of early quarterings, the first detail of armorial bearings is the entract from an heraldic document 1562 at p 41-43:

http://archive.org/stream/noticesoffamilyo00gran#page/40/

Indeed, the document quoted in full is a grant of arms and crest by Clarenceux, dated 21 March 1562, which purports to be in response to a petition from Richard Welbye of "an aucient howse bearing armes" wishing to bear them lawfully. This may have been true but one is suspicious of such wording in grants or confirmations at the time of visitations.

 

I have not chased up the DBA refs in the 15th century but my guess is that there are no known arms for this family temp Edward I or Edward II.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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08 November 2012 18:34
 

Derek Howard;96503 wrote:

...and by the reign of Henry VII members of the family are described as "armiger" and there is mention of early quarterings, the first detail of armorial bearings is the entract from an heraldic document 1562


And keep in mind that "armiger" during the reign of Henry VII was simply Latin for "esquire."  The OED doesn’t record a meaning of armiger as "a person entitled to heraldic arms" until 1800-ish.  So the description "armiger" in the 15th/16th centuries can’t be taken as proof that he had a coat of arms.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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08 November 2012 19:45
 

Joseph McMillan;96506 wrote:

And keep in mind that "armiger" during the reign of Henry VII was simply Latin for "esquire."  The OED doesn’t record a meaning of armiger as "a person entitled to heraldic arms" until 1800-ish.  So the description "armiger" in the 15th/16th centuries can’t be taken as proof that he had a coat of arms.

very interesting!

In Latin, ‘armiger’ functioned as an adjective – meaning “carrying weapons or armor; armed; warlike”.  It comes from ‘arma’ (arms) and ‘gerere’ (to carry).

 

Its two meanings in English would be:

• a person entitled to bear a coat of arms (as we use it)

• a squire carrying the armor of a knight (from its Latin root)

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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08 November 2012 21:50
 

Yes, I should have been more precise. It was in English legal Latin of the Medieval-to-early modern period that armiger was used as the equivalent of esquire in Latin documents. So we find on the bookplate of a prominent 18th century Marylander, "Jacobus Tilghman, armiger," which is to say "James Tilghman, Esq." At other ranks, "Johannes Falstaff, miles" was John Falstaff, Kt, and "Carolus Barham, generosus," was Charles Barham, gent.

In Latin Latin, of course, miles was simply a soldier, not necessarily a mounted soldier.

 
Arthur Radburn
 
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09 November 2012 03:46
 

Derek Howard;96503 wrote:

I would caution care with using Foster ...

Thank you for the detailed explanation.  I shall put a note in the front of my copy of Foster for future reference.

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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09 November 2012 06:50
 

I know that some have an interest in the ceremonial and process and, as I have just received my copy of the Friends of Canterbury Cathedral newsletter, I shall just pass on that it informs me that:
Quote:

The formal process leading up the Enthronement can now start although, of course, Dr Rowan Williams is very much still Archbishop until the end of December 2012, after which he will move to Magdalene College Cambridge.

On the 10th January 2013, the College of Canons will meet in the Chapter House of the Cathedral to elect Dr Welby as the new Archbishop, having received a Congé d’Elire from the Crown.

After the election, a ceremony will be held in St Paul’s Cathedral on the 4th February where the Dean of Canterbury will confirm to an episcopal commission that Dr Welby has been elected according to statute; and the present Bishop of Durham will then become the 105th Archbishop of Canterbury.

His Enthronement in Canterbury Cathedral will follow on Thursday, 21st March 2013, when Dr Welby will be placed in the diocesan throne in the Cathedral Quire, and in the Chair of St Augustine, by the Dean.

 

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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09 November 2012 08:55
 

Bishop Welby’s maternal grandfather was Lt Col Gervas Edward Portal who was the elder brother of Air Marshal Sir Charles Portal, later the 1st and last Viscount Portal of Hungerford.  From a quick glance at Burke’s Peerage under the Welby baronets of Denton Manor, Co. Lincoln there is no mention of Bishop Welby’s father, Gavin Bramhall Bernard Welby or that of his grandfather, Bramhall James Welby, of South Africa.  Co-incidentally, the Welby pedigree in Burke’s Peerage notes that Joan Margaret, the youngest daughter of Sir Charles Welby, the 5th baronet of Denton Manor married in 1919, Charles Portal, (later 1st Viscount Portal of Hungerford) as mentioned above.

It would be interesting to learn of Bishop Welby’s antecedents beyond his grandfather.  Burkes General Armory does list a number of Welby families or branches thereof other than the branch of Denton Manor bearing the same arms, they are: of Welby, Co. Lincoln; of King’s Lynn, Co. Norfolk (with a martlet for difference); of Woodhead, Co. Rutland; of Halstide, Co. Berkshire and of Mowlton, Co. Lancaster.  Whether these various Welbys are cousins is not presently known.

 

John

 
Derek Howard
 
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09 November 2012 09:41
 

Still digging for the earliest Welby arms starting in the Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary. This lists one untinctured and 5 tinctured examples before 1530.

1. A fess between 3 fleurs de lys (untinctured), DBA, v 3, p 410

1488 brass with modern restoration to Joan daughter of Sir Richard Leyke & widow of Thos Welby; Holbeach, Lincs. Cites: Mill Stephenson, Headley Brothers: "A list of monumental brasses in the British Isles", 1926, Appendix, 1938 (rubbings in Society of Antiquaries, shelf mark 326)

This volume has been republished as Mill Stephenson: "A List of Monumental Brasses in the British Isles" (London 1964); p 286. Brass rubbing from Holbeach, Lincolnshire of Joanna Welby, 1488; the record created 1825-1927.

 

The University of Nottingham library holds a collection of 57 brass rubbings from churches in East Anglia and the East Midlands, taken 1925-1927. This small collection of brass rubbings seems to have been the work of the Reverend A. Haines, and derives from a number of churches in East Anglia and the East Midlands. The collection was given to the library in 1930.

http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=NaviTree.tcl&dsqField=RefNo&dsqItem=BRS

The specific item reference number is BRS 32

http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=0&dsqSearch=(PlaceCode==PL42487)

 

Another rubbing of the same, taken in 1929, is in the Ashmolean Museum, Department of Antiquities, parish: Holbeach, Joan, widow of Thomas Welby, Esq., 1488 (Date/Signature: 1929 - F.G.) Monumental Brass, Lincolnshire 1/28

http://www.ashmolean.org/ash/departments/antiquities/brass/counties/Lincolnshire.html

 

We are told that the brass to Joanna Welby is 34 inches long on a tomb chest she died in 1488. http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-198022-church-of-all-saints-holbeach-lincolnshi” class=“bbcode_url”]http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.fairweather/docs/holbeach.htm and it is mentioned in http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-198022-church-of-all-saints-holbeach-lincolnshi[/url]

 

However, the text of this brass is given in “Notices of the Family of Welby”, 1842, p 38, where the author makes no reference to any arms being displayed. It will be noted that the brass is quoted as dating Joan’s death to 18 December 14[xx] (“xviii Die Mensis Decembris Anno Dom. mcccc[space]”). I wonder whether the arms on the brass in the 1920s and the date of 1488 form part of the “modern” restoration mentioned in Mill Stephenson. If so, we unfortunately cannot rely on this item as evidence of the use of the Welby arms in 1488.

http://archive.org/stream/noticesoffamilyo00gran#page/38/

 

2. Sable a fess between 3 fleurs de lys Argent, DBA, v 3, p 411

1. [Welby] RL 32b 1 (Rawlinson roll, 15th cent) CEMRA, 108 merely confirms general 15th century date.

2. [Welby] RL 32b 2, impaling Gules fretty Or a chief Ermine [Foulshurst]

3. [Welby] RL 32b 3, impaling Ermine on a bend Gules 3 leopards faces Or [Stynte].

I do not find Foulshurst or Stynte in the family genealogy. Perhaps someone else can link these?

4. Welby, Willimus, Q II 628 (Collins Roll II, lost original, 15th cent, edited in Aspilogia III). I have not got Aspilogia III on my shelves but CEMRA, 24-5 confirms numerous 15th cent additions to a late 13th century original roll but the 3 surviving copies are very late at c 1575, c 1580 and c 1640. In short, as the arms are not listed as in Collins I, we cannot say the arms are from the original roll but are at the earliest at an unknown 15th century date and may well be far later.

5. Welby, Wm., SES 79 (2nd Segar Roll, lost book, copy College of Arms, ms Vincent 165, ff 73b-78, c. 1460). However, Campbell and Steer: “A Catalogue of the Manuscripts in the College of Arms, Collections, vol 1”, 1988, p 401, states the copy, if contemporary with its heading, may be dated 1597-1607.

 

Who was the William Welby identified in the Collins roll and the 2nd Segar roll? The family pedigree at http://archive.org/stream/noticesoffamilyo00gran#page/n13/ is headed by one in the early 14th century and another appears as son of Richard Welby (d 1465) and his wife Janet. This latter William would have been the senior bearer of the plain arms after the death of his brothers in 1496. It is a pity that the monuments in Crowland (Croyland) Abbey where many of the family were buried have not survived.

 

The Soldier in later Medieval England data base at http://www.icmacentre.ac.uk/soldier/database/search.php shows that a John Welby was mustered as an armed archer in Ireland 1374-6; Richard Welby served as a man at arms at sea in 1378 and 1387; Thomas Welby, Esquire was a man at arms at sea in 1387, Richard a man at arms in 1415, Nicholas an archer in 1415.

 

John Welby and William Welbys both served as archers were in the Harfleur garrison in 1415; John Welby served in the Normandy garrison in 1434-7 as treasurer general; William Welby served as an archer was in the Cherbourg garrison in 1440; Thomas Welby served as an archer in the St Lo garrison 1440; and Robert Welbe was an archer was in Caen in 1440.

 

In short, there is no obvious candidate in the wars in France for our armigerous William. This suggests that the arms were adopted or granted late in the 15th century, after the era of using arms on shields on the field of battle and at a time when only the senior commanders used arms on banners and standards.

 

Having read the 1562 document more carefully, it is a grant of a crest and not of the pre-existing, and perhaps unlawfully borne, shield.

 

I also been musing that the use of Sable and three fleurs de lys might have been influenced by Henry VI’s use of them for his educational institutions.

 
Derek Howard
 
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09 November 2012 09:58
 

liongam;96519 wrote:

.... It would be interesting to learn of Bishop Welby’s antecedents beyond his grandfather. ....

I note the Lay Anglicana Blog states
Quote:

Justin Welby was born in London on 6 January 1956 to Gavin Bramhall Welby and his wife, Jane Gillian Portal.  He is almost certainly related to the Lincolnshire Welbys on his father’s side, and is definitely related to them through his mother and the Portal family.[3]

3. Justin Welby is the great-nephew of the present (7th) baronet’s aunt’s husband, ‘Peter’ Portal (1st Viscount Portal), i.e. he married Joan Welby, daughter of the 5th Welby baronet. I know this because, coincidentally, I have been working on the family tree of one of his Welby cousins. At present, I cannot link him through the Welby line, though it seems very likely that he does connect. Justin’s parents were divorced when he was two, and all that is known is some of his father’s history in America, where he then went, and the fact that Justin’s grandfather, Bramhall James Welby, lived in South Africa.

http://www.layanglicana.org/blog/2012/08/13/candidates-for-cantuar-justin-welby/

To which one Tim Welby responded:
Quote:

Hello, I read your article on my father with great interest - not least because it was better researched, and more factual ....

I was interested in your third point at the bottom of 13th August 2012. You are talking about the Welby family tree. If you find the link you were looking for I would be most interested. My brother and I have done a substantial amount family history and have never connected the two.

The family understanding has always been that when Bramhall James Welby returned from South Africa he picked Welby because he thought it sounded English. Certainly we have never been able to track this line back beyond Bramhall James Welby.

It is interesting he is apparently using arms to which he has no proven right. Perhaps an additional difference beyond his current impalement of arms of office might be appropriate before he is elevated to the higher office?

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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13 November 2012 15:33
 

Interestingly the Arms of the new Archbishop is not very dissimilar from those of a former Archbishop (1945-61) Geoffrey Fisher (later Baron Fisher of Lambeth upon retirement, Lambeth alluding to Lambeth Palace the London residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury).

Archbishop Fisher’s Arms was:

 

Argent between three Fleur-de-lys a fess wavy all Sable.

 

The tinctures and wavy fess altough serves to make the two Arms distinctive.