Discussion with Lyon Office

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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Joined  30-03-2011
 
 
 
12 December 2012 13:39
 

Below is a discussion with the Lyon office that I thought some would find to be interesting.

_________________________________________________________________

 

Dear Mr. Cannon,

 

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I can confirm that wearing your Arms or crest on a pin would not cause any difficulty and there would be no need to contact the Procurator Fiscal.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Bruce Gorie

 

 

 


<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
From: harold cannon [mailto:haroldcannon@hotmail.com]

Sent: 11 December 2012 14:18

To: Court of the Lord Lyon - Lyon Office

Subject: RE: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.

 

 

Dear Mr. Gorie,

 

Thank you for your reply. The only way that I could see my arms being used other than what you have mentioned, would be possibly displaying my banner of arms or my crest in the form of a pin.

 

Would I need to check with the Procurator Fiscal to see if my intentions would be allowed? If so could I get contact information for him?

 

Yours In Service,

Chaplain, Harold Cannon

 

 


<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
Subject: RE: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:25:45 +0000

From: Court_of_the_Lord_Lyon_-_Lyon_Office@scotland.gsi.gov.uk

To: haroldcannon@hotmail.com

 

 

Dear Mr. Cannon,

 

Thank you for your further e-mail and please accept my apologies for not responding sooner.

 

It is certainly the case that the use or display of unlawful Arms, that is Arms that are not on record in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland in name of the bearer or to which he or she is in right, could cause difficulties if it came to the attention of the Procurator Fiscal to the Court of the Lord Lyon. However, while the Lord Lyon cannot formally authorize use of unregistered Arms, it would not cause any difficulty if Arms on record elsewhere were displayed in Scotland while the owner was here for a short period such as you mention. Such occasions might be while attending a clan gathering or similar event or, during your stay, using headed notepaper bearing your Arms, or displaying your Arms on a table banner at a formal function. You do not say how you might use your Arms but I do not think it would be appropriate for the Arms to be displayed, for example, on publicity material being distributed in Scotland but whether this sort of display would cause you difficulty would be for the Procurator Fiscal to decide if it came to his attention.

 

I do hope this is of help, but if anything is unclear or you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Bruce Gorie

 

Bruce Gorie

Secretary to Lyon Office,

Court of the Lord Lyon,

HM New Register House,

Edinburgh,

EH1 3YT

Tel:  0131 556 7255

Fax:  0131 557 2148

 

 

 

 


<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
From: harold cannon [mailto:haroldcannon@hotmail.com]

Sent: 10 December 2012 23:54

To: Court of the Lord Lyon - Lyon Office

Subject: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.

 

 

I just wanted to touch base on this as I have not heard a reply from my origional email.

 

Yours In Service,

Chaplain, Harold Cannon

 

 


<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
From: haroldcannon@hotmail.com

To: lyonoffice@scotland.gsi.gov.uk

Subject: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 01:41:28 +0000

 

 

Mr. Gorie,

 

Here in the United States there is no heraldic authority so we are free to assume arms if we wish. There is a great group call the American Heraldry Society which I am a member of that has set out a basic guide for heraldic practice in the United States. I have created a coat of arms for myself with the help and guidance of experienced heraldic artists. I have also had them registered here in the U.S. and also with the Cronista de Armas de Castilla y LeĆ³n, that being said would I be accorded the right to use my arms on a temporary visit to Scotland? The trip would be about two weeks at the longest and I would have occasion to use them in conjunction with some activities that I would be attending. Some have told me that I could be fined or possibly arrested for using my arms as they are not granted the Lyon Court. I feel that there would not be any harm as this would be a short term trip and probably a once in a lifetime trip. My understanding is that an armiger may use there arms in Scotland for a certain amount of time before they must be registered with the Lyon Court. I would greatly appreciate you shedding some light on this subject for me as there seems you be a good amount contradicting information floating around. Thank you for your time and attention and I happily await your reply.

 

Your In Service,

Chaplain, Harold Cannon

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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12 December 2012 23:21
 

This has in the past been referred to as "the courtesy of Scotland"—i.e. temporary use by a visitor while in Scotland would not be considered as a violation, or at least not a violation the authorities would pursue.

On the other hand, establishing an on-going connection with Scotland and its legal system, such as purchasing property and displaying one’s non-Scottish arms in that connection in the same ways that a resident Scot whose arms are registered with Lyon might do, without matriculating your arms with Lyon, would not be overlooked.  It would essentially be an abuse of the courtesy shown to the casual visitor.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
Total Posts:  240
Joined  30-03-2011
 
 
 
13 December 2012 00:31
 

My reason for posting this was that some people were under the impression that the Lyon Court would take action against a visiting armiger if they were to display their arms while on a short trip to Scotland and the ONLY those lodged with the Lyon Court would be allowed. I do not see myself as making Scotland my home but do plan on visiting there.

I happened to be getting some bashing on another site and figured that I would get the word straight from the hourses mouth, so to speak.

 

I also felt that this could be beneficial to others so that is why I posted it here.

 

Oh and also do not let someone fool you about the tradition of armigers wearing a single feather. That is not under the control of Lyon. He has clearly stated that is the domain of the clan chiefs and is subject to their approval.

 

There are also ways of obtaining great custom hand colored FAKE golden eagle feathers. If anyone is interested you can message me for the company that I use.

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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13 December 2012 05:32
 

Sounds unintendedly ambiguous, at least for a non-native speaker like myself.

"[...] displaying my banner of arms or my crest in the form of a pin" may signify either

"displaying a banner of arms in a form of a pin, or a crest in the same form", or

"using a banner of arms, or wearing a crest in the form of a pin".

I presume that the former was implied; otherwise the answer was incomplete.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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Joined  30-03-2011
 
 
 
13 December 2012 11:07
 

The latter was what was intended. I am glad you caught that because the answer is incomplete.

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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13 December 2012 13:42
 

I woner if that was made intentionally; I presume it was not. A mere technical misunderstanding, so it seems.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
13 December 2012 15:26
 

English grammar can be, for better or worse, remarkably imprecise—probably also true of most if not all other languages, from the viewpoint of a non-native speaker.  This is both the bane and beauty of languages blessed with long history and great literature.

While this can be exploited in any language—else why do we all have lawyers? smile—usually it’s unconscious & unintended, here as elsewhere.

 

But we can & do occasionally have a bit of fun with it…