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David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 11:20
 

Thanks once again, Kenneth. That clears it up nicely.

Back to the crest:

 

On a wreath of the liveries, a Celtic knot argent between two branchlets of Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana) proper.

 

Too much of a cliche as a reference to Celtic blood from three different nations?

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 12:00
 

steven harris;96879 wrote:

I believe that Ursus arctos horribilis is most generally called a grizzly bear, rather than an "American Brown Bear".


American Brown, Grizzly and Silvertip are all names of the same animal.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 12:03
 

Joseph McMillan;96883 wrote:

I would simply blazon these as eight-pointed stars (or, for the pompously inclined, stars of eight points).

Nice design, but I’d urge you to call a bear a bear (and just a bear).  Heraldically, any temperate zone bear blazoned "proper" is going to look pretty much like any other.


You might be right, but then again, temperate zone bears include black bears and even pandas. I have a reason for specifying an American brown bear.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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17 December 2012 12:06
 

I think the Celtic knot is a little cliché for a crest said the guy with a Celtic cross on his shield. My preference is for a crest that might actually sit atop a helmet. Have you veered away from the bear’s head erased?

 
 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 12:16
 

Kenneth Mansfield;96894 wrote:

I think the Celtic knot is a little cliché for a crest said the guy with a Celtic cross on his shield. My preference is for a crest that might actually sit atop a helmet. Have you veered away from the bear’s head erased?


Yes, I scratched the bear’s head idea, not wanting to repeat the bear element twice. I also nixed the torch as a result of reading threads here which label it as a cliche. Surely we are each allowed one cliche if it suits our purposes? :D

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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17 December 2012 12:37
 

There is a member here who has a specific Celtic knot (I believe from the Book of Kells) in his arms. It is, however, simply blazoned as a Celtic knot. I would recommend staying away from the term Dara Celtic knot if for no other reason than in looking to see which one that is, I have come across no fewer than half a dozen different knots so labelled.

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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17 December 2012 13:41
 

David_T;96893 wrote:

You might be right, but then again, temperate zone bears include black bears and even pandas. I have a reason for specifying an American brown bear.


That’s nice, but how exactly will a heraldic depiction of an American brown bear be distinguishable from a heraldic depiction of a European brown bear, an Atlas bear, a Kamchatkan brown bear, or, for that matter, a cinnamon bear (a reddish-brown American black bear)?

 

http://www.bearsoftheworld.net/images/bears/ours_noir_2a.jpg

 

Blazon is supposed to aim for both precision and conciseness, and only those elements essential to reproduce an emblazonment from the words—and to differentiate your arms from other similar ones—should be included.  Surely you don’t mean to suggest that someone else would be justified in assuming Argent a Kamchatkan brown bear passant regardant proper on a chief engrailed Azure seven eight-pointed stars Argent, do you?

 

That said, you are of course free to do as you please.

 
steven harris
 
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17 December 2012 14:14
 

I don’t know if this is possible, but could you make a Celtic knot out of the Eastern Red Cedar (J.virginiana) branches?

If Saint Nino of Cappadocia made a cross out of grapevine, then perhaps you can make one out of juniper…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 15:52
 

Joseph McMillan;96897 wrote:

That’s nice, but how exactly will a heraldic depiction of an American brown bear be distinguishable from a heraldic depiction of a European brown bear, an Atlas bear, a Kamchatkan brown bear, or, for that matter, a cinnamon bear (a reddish-brown American black bear)?


That would be up to the artist, would it not? If specified in the blazon, then at least the intent is clear there. There are significant differences in appearance between a cinnamon black bear and an American brown bear. I would think that an artist would rather know what was intended than not, regardless of how he chose to depict it heraldically.


Quote:

Blazon is supposed to aim for both precision and conciseness, and only those elements essential to reproduce an emblazonment from the words—and to differentiate your arms from other similar ones—should be included.  Surely you don’t mean to suggest that someone else would be justified in assuming Argent a Kamchatkan brown bear passant regardant proper on a chief engrailed Azure seven eight-pointed stars Argent, do you?


In that specific case, it would not matter since the two are virtually identical. However the same does not hold true for all creatures called "bear", as already discussed.

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 15:55
 

steven harris;96898 wrote:

I don’t know if this is possible, but could you make a Celtic knot out of the Eastern Red Cedar (J.virginiana) branches?

If Saint Nino of Cappadocia made a cross out of grapevine, then perhaps you can make one out of juniper…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross


Interesting idea. Thank you.

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
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17 December 2012 16:45
 

David, I think that you should use the nova term. It was invented by John Tunesi who formerly worked for the College of Arms. Your use of that term needs not approval from me, I myself borrowed the term from John.

As to Joe’s suggestion to just blazon them as eight-pointed stars, I respectfully disagree that they appear too much like compass stars (which have the problem of variable number of rays) to just call them #-pointed stars.

 

Nova fits your charge perfectly and I think you should use it, like I have, but that’s just my humble opinion of course. smile

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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17 December 2012 19:56
Joseph McMillan
 
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17 December 2012 21:44
 

David_T;96901 wrote:

That would be up to the artist, would it not? If specified in the blazon, then at least the intent is clear there. There are significant differences in appearance between a cinnamon black bear and an American brown bear. I would think that an artist would rather know what was intended than not, regardless of how he chose to depict it heraldically.

 

 

In that specific case, it would not matter since the two are virtually identical. However the same does not hold true for all creatures called "bear", as already discussed.


Fine, have it your way.  You’ve clearly looked at more heraldry than I have.

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 22:26
 

Joseph McMillan;96905 wrote:

Fine, have it your way.  You’ve clearly looked at more heraldry than I have.


No. I have not, as you are well aware. I do appreciate your input, advice and comments.

 
David_T
 
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David_T
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17 December 2012 22:27
 

harold cannon;96904 wrote:

Here is another version.


Thanks, Harold. I prefer your previous shield shape.