Sede Vacante?

 
david
 
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david
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27 February 2013 10:24
 

Do the arms of deceased popes show the keys?  If so, would that not indicate that they once held the office and power symbolized?  Why should it be any different in this case when he is still alive but retired?

I am amused by the mainstream media speculatiing about the potential "conflict" that might exist between two popes dressed alike, the titles Benedict will retain, etc.  Personally, I think that his decision not to include Bishop of Rome—even qualified by "emeritus"—is more significant.

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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27 February 2013 12:36
 

As I said, I’m waiting to see what changes—if any—are made to Benedict’s arms. The heraldic practice with other bishops emeritus is rather sloppy. Many—perhaps most—continue to use their arms marshaled with those of the see from which they retired. Strictly speaking, only the current ordinary of the see should marshal the diocesan arms with his own. Retired bishops should display a shield with only their personal arms, and surround the shield with the external insignia appropriate to their rank. Since the pope does not marshal his personal arms with those of his see, but rather uses the charges from the arms of the Holy See as external ornaments to a shield of his personal arms, some other way of distinguishing the arms of a retired pope from those of a reigning pope would seem to be in order—though I have no idea what that may be. Given the unfortunate heraldic choices Benedict made when he became pope, I am not counting on a happy precedent being set by this retiring pontiff.

As for the arms of dead popes and bishops are a different matter. Since they are dead, the use of their arms is purely commemorative. The use of arms by a living person should reflect their current, living status.

 
Boanerges83
 
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Boanerges83
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27 February 2013 22:15
 

[First post]

Thus far, we now understand that H.H. will retain use of both style ("His Holiness") and name ("Benedict XVI") as pope emeritus.  He will no longer wear the fisherman’s ring (the destruction of which was depicted in The Shoes of the Fisherman, starring Anthony Quinn), but might revert to one of his older episcopal rings (or even the cardinalitial one; we understand that some bishops have at least one "work" ring and one "dress" ring, but what do I know). His cassock will not have the shoulder cape. His shoes will no longer be red (but will not be black.  As for the rest of his wardrobe, we have yet to find out. Perhaps he will not longer wear the fur-trimed mozetta when he’s in choir dress, among other things.

 

As for the arms, isn’t the ban on miters for personal arms still in force for other bishops? The pope certainly was above the ban, but in the few hours’ time, he might be subject to it….

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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27 February 2013 22:31
 

Living a life in seclusion he will really not have any need to worry about "choir dress".

Also, I doubt very much his coat of arms will change. Like deceased popes his arms will likely remain the same.

 

There is no "ban" on mitres in the arms of bishops. In many countries bishops still ensign their arms with a mitre. Rather, Paul VI issued an Instruction in which he said the mitre and crozier should no longer be used in the personal arms BUT no one enforces this and it was not intended as binding legislation. Rather, it is an Instruction. Let me be clear: it should be followed but it often isn’t and the Holy See does not protest that.

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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28 February 2013 03:31
 

gselvester;97711 wrote:

There is no "ban" on mitres in the arms of bishops. In many countries bishops still ensign their arms with a mitre. Rather, Paul VI issued an Instruction in which he said the mitre and crozier should no longer be used in the personal arms BUT no one enforces this and it was not intended as binding legislation. Rather, it is an Instruction. Let me be clear: it should be followed but it often isn’t and the Holy See does not protest that.

What was the thinking that lay behind this instruction? How should the Instruction be referred to (date, words?)?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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28 February 2013 09:31
 

Off topic:  I just read that when the cardinals go into the conclave, they order "extra omnes."  Now I’m no great Latin scholar, but extra clearly means "extra" and omnes means "everything."  All the millions of starving people in the world, and this bunch of mostly old, mostly white guys get to order "extra everything?"  An outrage, I tell you!

PS:  Just kidding and waiting for someone out there to complain about it seriously.  wink

 

PPS:  On the other hand, "extra everything" does describe some episcopal arms we’ve seen, doesn’t it?

 
Pelayo
 
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Pelayo
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28 February 2013 14:40
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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28 February 2013 17:13
 

Derek Howard;97716 wrote:

What was the thinking that lay behind this instruction? How should the Instruction be referred to (date, words?)?

Ut sive (1969), no. 28.

 
Derek Howard
 
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Derek Howard
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01 March 2013 07:16
 

Dcgb7f;97720 wrote:

URL="http://www.shetlersites.com/clericaldress/utsivesollicite.html"]Ut sive[/URL] (1969), no. 28.

Thanks for this link. Quite interesting.

I note that no 29 requires the removal of personal images. I can think of a wonderful collection of painted portraits in the Cathedral of St Bavo in Ghent, stretching back at least a couple of centuries, each also displaying the bishop’s personal arms (a small sample can be seen here including the current Bishop of Brugge (de Kesel) and the last Bishop of Antwerp (Van den Berghe). However, I do not recall whether the current Bishop of Ghent (van Looy) is there. Incidentally the church has some fine stain glass windows with the arms of former bishops including crosses, croziers, mitres and galeros - the extra everything - almost.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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13 March 2013 11:35
 

one more go at it before white smoke rises from the Sistine Chapel.

Joseph Ratzinger as Pope emeritus:

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img268/4754/josephratzingeremeritus.png

 
Benjamin Thornton
 
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Benjamin Thornton
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13 March 2013 12:30
 

A non-heraldic tangent: Do popes renounce their native citizenship upon election?

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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13 March 2013 14:19
 

White smoke has been reported!


Benjamin Thornton;97848 wrote:

A non-heraldic tangent: Do popes renounce their native citizenship upon election?

No, B16 holds both German and Vatican citizenship.

 
Snyder
 
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Snyder
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13 March 2013 14:36
 

I apologize for being slightly off topic, but I was introduced to this webcam with a live feed from the Vatican. In the time I was introduced to it and now, they have popped the white smoke.

http://wtvr.com/2013/03/12/watch-live-vatican-smoke-cam/

 

*Please resume previous conversations* smile

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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13 March 2013 15:22
 
 
 
Boanerges83
 
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Boanerges83
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19 March 2013 21:22
 

steven harris;97847 wrote:

one more go at it before white smoke rises from the Sistine Chapel.

Joseph Ratzinger as Pope emeritus:

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img268/4754/josephratzingeremeritus.png


Since the Sede Vancante ended last week, we can once more posit that the Pontiff emeritus loses the right to use the keys in his arms while he yet lives (although his full achievement with keys might be a matter of perpetual record once he is called to his reward), I am intrigued as to the proposed use of the baculum with the triple-traverse. Since that ornament is itself the preserve of the incumbent (and there have been instances when that cross was used in some achievements where the escutcheon was supported by angels carrying those as staves), wouldn’t the single-barred cross suffice as he personally is a bishop emeritus, with the miter to be retained as the only other ornament? He did not revert to the cardinalate, after all, hence the use of the scarlet galero would not be ideal.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.