Spikenard berries do indeed look like little grapes, but spikenard blossoms don’t, and the blazon says fiore di nardo, not bacche di nardo. From the Flickr photostream of the Roman basilica of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme, this picture is labeled "Don Francesco con fiore di nardo."
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3184/2888129986_508ddd8c3b_z.jpg
gselvester;97976 wrote:
But, when something looks like grapes and you consult the explanation (blazon) to see how they’re described and discover that they aren’t grapes then you kind of have to let go of your assertion that they are grapes no matter what you think they look like.
[snip]
Perhaps spikenard just looks a lot more like grapes than you knew.
Here is a close-up of the official coat of arms illustration and superimposed next to it is a bunch of grapes right off of the Wikimedia Commons’ section on grapes in heraldry. Not only did they use grapes to illustrate spikenard berries, they appear to have used clip-art grapes.
I am not aware of any heraldic authorities in Argentina, but the use of a clipart image on one’s arms seems to have arisen from what may be an unfortunate situation at the time Jorge Bergoglio assumed his arms as a bishop. As such, there might have been little reference to nard flowers or berries known to the designer who composed his arms then, at least heraldically.
Is there a way to rescue the design based on the blazon? I trust that the more knowledgeable ones can find a more seemly depiction of nard.
P.S.: I don’t see any diocesan arms on Buenos Aires’ web site, save of the now-former ordinary.
Kenneth Mansfield;97979 wrote:
Here is a close-up of the official coat of arms illustration and superimposed next to it is a bunch of grapes right off of the Wikimedia Commons’ section on grapes in heraldry. Not only did they use grapes to illustrate spikenard berries, they appear to have used clip-art grapes.
That is compelling and unfortunate. Poorly executed heraldic art is one thing - wrongly executed heraldic art is another. Alas, what can be done?
Dcgb7f;97974 wrote:
Close but not quite. That translation makes it sound as if the Latin is in the nominative case. The -o ending indicates an ablative or dative case. To clarify which it is, we need to consider the words in the original context, which in this case is a quote from Ven. Bede. Bede writes: "Vidit ergo Iesus publicanum, et quia miserando atque eligendo vidit, ait illi, ‘Sequere me’.—-"Jesus, therefore, saw the publican, and because he saw by having mercy and by choosing, He said to him, ‘Follow me’”.—- The phrase in context is an ablative of means… how something is carried out. So a better translation of his motto would "by having mercy and deciding" in the sense that this is how he will carry out his episcopal ministry.
I have agree - I was following an English transation of the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires website.
Joseph McMillan;97978 wrote:
Spikenard berries do indeed look like little grapes, but spikenard blossoms don’t, and the blazon says fiore di nardo, not bacche di nardo.
I have to agree with this assesment. If Hish Holiness wanted to use a spikenard blossom to symbolize Saint Joseph, then the arist missed twice - once becuase he used the plant’s berry instead of its flower, and again beacuse we seems to have just used a clip-art bunch of grapes instead of the berries anyway.
Without giving official sanction to one religion over another, could we pool some funds and commission a decent artist to appropriately depict these arms? The Catholic church is one of the more enthusiastic users of heraldry within the U.S. Perhaps this is an opportunity to encourage good heraldry in a setting where it would be seen by folks world-wide.
I don’t think that will work, David. What has been released is the official coat of arms and blazon and I imagine there is little that can be done now. As water was changed to wine, so now have grapes been turned into spikenard flowers.
:pope:
History, I think, will record this charge as grapes. I say that because eccl. tend to be image/emblazonment driven such that the bearer associates himself with just one emblazonment and not the blazon, which never see the light of day assuming the original "herald" even composes one. I distinguish this cases that have a blazon that is "officially" composed and databased such that the bearer identifies himself with a blazon and not a particular emblazonment. I have on more than one occasion encountered eccl. arms where the blazon and well-circulated image don’t match, and one pretty much has to go by what the emblazonment depicts because that’s what the bearer identifies with and what everyone else would associate with him. An emblazonment strictly by the blazon would, in those cases, produced something few if anyone would immediately recognized as being his… either because it’s technically incorrect or just doesn’t describe what was depicted. I think the same will happen here a decades after Pope Francis passes when the only thing future heraldist have to go by is the image and not the particular press release.
Joseph McMillan;97978 wrote:
Spikenard berries do indeed look like little grapes, but spikenard blossoms don’t, and the blazon says fiore di nardo, not bacche di nardo.
There is no "blazon". There is only a Holy See press office release that offers an explanation. That explanation speaks of St. Joseph holding a blossoming staff of spikenard. The author of that release is not, in fact is almost certainly not, familiar with the proper way to describe heraldic achievements. So, don’t get so literal with the Italian words.
They are spikenard berries no matter what anyone on this forum thinks, says, perceives.
We have another lovely tradition in Catholicism: "Roma locuta est; causa finita est". When the pope adopted these arms as a bishop the symbol he wanted was to allude to St. Joseph with spikenard berries. So, they are spikenard berries.
Kenneth Mansfield;97979 wrote:
Not only did they use grapes to illustrate spikenard berries, they appear to have used clip-art grapes.
Well, I know who did the artwork (I’m not at liberty to say) and if you knew who it was too you would understand how clip art came to be used. Let’s just say that Bruno Heim is spinning in his grave.
Someone at Wikipedia took the time to do a rendering in which the artwork is slightly nicer albeit in the exact same style as the version released yesterday. I’m looking forward to the artistic renderings that will be done by heraldic artists in the days/weeks ahead.
gselvester;97991 wrote:
...When the pope adopted these arms as a bishop the symbol he wanted was to allude to St. Joseph with spikenard berries. So, they are spikenard berries.
Except that, as Rome Reports stated only a few days ago…
Quote:
On the right hand side, is a grape vine symbolizing Jesus as the grower of the Faith.
I’m not suggesting that they weren’t wrong, but surely they got that explanation from somewhere and didn’t come up with it on their own. So…where?
gselvester;97991 wrote:
There is no "blazon".
But just the other day you wrote:
gselvester;97972 wrote:
Well, actually, no. This is why the artistic rendering is not as important as the blazon. The blazon, not the picture, determines what they are.
So which is it?
Quote:
There is only a Holy See press office release that offers an explanation.
The same press release that you quoted as authoritative when rebutting the presumption that they were grapes, no?
[Tongue mildly in cheek]
Perhaps if we all asked for the late Archbishop Heim’s intercession on heraldic matters? It might even count as a miracle in a course for his beatification if we were to see excellent papal arms…
