Joseph McMillan;97995 wrote:
But just the other day you wrote:
So which is it?
The same press release that you quoted as authoritative when rebutting the presumption that they were grapes, no?
They aren’t grapes and it isn’t a flower. They’re spikenard berries. So, stop arguing like this is a legal case that can determine the outcome. They are berries no matter what any of you THINKS they look like.
Having said that I will add that for the record I never said the press office explanation was an official blazon or that it was authoritative. In fact, I referred to it alternatively as both and used the word blazon for the benefit of those here who understand that to mean the written description of a coat of arms. One only has to read it to see it isn’t a blazon and I’m not stupid enough to think it was. I said that the blazon (meaning the blazon of any arms) determines what the arms are, not the artistic rendering. I quoted it for the same reason you did: it’s all there is to go on. The point I was was making (which seems to have been lost on you) was that an artistic rendering can’t be used to determine what a charge is. One can never appeal to the picture as definitive. A proper blazon for these arms has yet to be written if there will be one at all. The press office release, which is not an official blazon, nevertheless explains the thought behind the pope’s choice of this charge. You can’t say that because it uses the word for flower and not branch that the rendering is wrong. Perhaps the person who wrote the release (and had little or nothing to do with the creation of the coat of arms) simply used the wrong word? The press office sometimes gets things wrong. If you got the impression I was calling the written explanation from the press office an authoritative blazon then you read that wrong.
Kenneth Mansfield;97994 wrote:
Except that, as Rome Reports stated only a few days ago…
I’m not suggesting that they weren’t wrong, but surely they got that explanation from somewhere and didn’t come up with it on their own. So…where?
Why are you sure about that? Do you have any idea the mountain of things various outlets in the media have gotten wrong in the last month about the goings on at the Vatican? You’re assuming that Rome Reports is a reliable source and that they must have gotten their information from a source that can be counted upon as accurate. Those are two big assumptions.
Perhaps they did come up with it on their own. They not only got it wrong that the charge isn’t grapes but they got it wrong that it represents Jesus instead of St. Joseph. Perhaps they simply looked at it and then made that up? You think news outlets don’t do things like that? There is one decent source for reasonably reliable news from the Holy See: their own press office. Their explanation says nothing about grapes or that charge being a symbol of Jesus. Anything you hear or read anywhere else could come, literally from anywhere. I was just the on air "expert" for the local cable news channel this past week. I didn’t lie or make anything up but no one at the channel checked my facts or asked for sources. They just took my word for it. Maybe "Rome Reports" spoke to someone who wanted to sound in the know and made it all up as he went along?
This week I also saw several "explanations" of the pope’s coat of arms having to do with constellations and ships from outer space. Who was their source? They must have gotten it from somewhere…
gselvester;97998 wrote:
This week I also saw several "explanations" of the pope’s coat of arms having to do with constellations and ships from outer space. Who was their source? They must have gotten it from somewhere…
Why am I reminded of the "teaser" from Mel Brooks’ "History of the World: Part One" featuring ‘Jews in Space’? That said, it is now further regrettable that press offices cannot be counted upon to be sufficiently knowledgeable about heraldry. If there will be one who will trick the blazon as worded (thereby showing us the spikenard flowers instead of the berries), one might be able to regain lost sleep.
Great inauguration, though. But that’s another story for another forum.
gselvester;97991 wrote:
We have another lovely tradition in Catholicism: "Roma locuta est; causa finita est". When the pope adopted these arms as a bishop the symbol he wanted was to allude to St. Joseph with spikenard berries. So, they are spikenard berries.
...and on that note, this scion of Scots Covenanters makes a graceful exit. :D
What will Dan Brown make of all this, I wonder.
Father Guy, I fear you may be coming across as a bit brittle (with the rebukes in bold and CAPS AND EVEN UNDERLINED). If the spikenard berries HH chose for his arms ended up looking rather eerily (and perhaps obviously) like grapes to us, you need not take it so personally. This is heraldry, not heresy - we’re just expressing our disappointment in the execution of such a high profile heraldic opportunity.
Well, maybe the Pope is infallible as to both doctrine and blazon 
Seriously, whatever (IMO relatively minor) concerns we might have with the description and/or the artwork, it is what(ever) it is & we’ve seen far, far worse on both points. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good enough.
And this certainly isn’t the first (or the hundredth) time the same charge in someone’s arms has carried more than one symbolic meaning—& in this case, at least, both options (grapes or nard, whatever that is) are suitable for the person and the purpose of the exercise.
And the example of retaining essentially the same design as one climbs the ranks may serve as a good model for others.
Beyond that, IMO we should remember that the arms are just the tail—which shouldn’t wag the otherwise most admirable Papal dog. He seems like a really good choice for the job!
Well, maybe the Pope is infallible as to both doctrine and blazon
Seriously, whatever (IMO relatively minor) concerns we might have with the description and/or the artwork, it is what(ever) it is & we’ve seen far, far worse on both points. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good enough.
And this certainly isn’t the first (or the hundredth) time the same charge in someone’s arms has carried more than one symbolic meaning—& in this case, at least, both options (grapes or nard, whatever that is) are suitable for the person and the purpose of the exercise.
And the example of retaining essentially the same design as one climbs the ranks may serve as a good model for others.
Beyond that, IMO we should remember that the arms are just the tail—which shouldn’t wag the otherwise most admirable Papal dog. (Hope that doesn’t sound too flippant.) He seems like a really good choice for the job!
In the world I live in, an official spokesman is presumed to speak authoritatively unless his principal disavows what he says. I can think of more than one spokesman who pretty much winged it in front of the media, and the U.S. government was stuck with the result because the President, Secretary of State, or Secretary of Defense decided not to make a correction. Yes, I’m thinking of particular instances.
Perhaps I’m just not jesuitical enough to comprehend a world in which the spokesman can say "In basso, si trovano la stella e il fiore di nardo," and it does not actually mean, "In base are found the star and the spikenard flower."
I accept that the spokesman is not a heraldic expert, but you, Fr. Guy, are, and yet you initially identified it as a bunch of grapes yourself, as all of us other more-or-less experts did. So are we to believe that the non-expert spokesman looked at what all of us saw as a bunch of grapes and, without coaching from anyone involved in the design, recognized it as a fiore de nardo?
As for the press statement not being a blazon, no it isn’t a blazon straight through, but a heraldic layman doesn’t come up on his own with phrases and words like "un sole raggiante e fiammeggiante," "caricato," "sormontata da una croce," or "in punta."
source: http://dibujoheraldico.blogspot.com.es/2013/03/habemus-insigne.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vS_kMObXMGc/UUdJUtyRc_I/AAAAAAAAGIg/4tBA-8I86UU/s1600/Papa+Francisco.png
This loos more like an Ango-tardition lilly for Joseph than it does the Hispanic-tradition nard, but at least it’s a blossom.
gselvester;97991 wrote:
We have another lovely tradition in Catholicism: "Roma locuta est; causa finita est". When the pope adopted these arms as a bishop the symbol he wanted was to allude to St. Joseph with spikenard berries. So, they are spikenard berries.
If we stipulate that "Rōma Locūta Est; Causa Fīnīta Est" ("Rome has spoken; the case is closed"), then wouldn’t it be fair to say that the only way we have to know that Rome has indeed spoken is through it’s own press office? That press office said that it was a flower of nard - case closed, the artist screwed up.
Claus K Berntsen;97996 wrote:
[Tongue mildly in cheek]
Perhaps if we all asked for the late Archbishop Heim’s intercession on heraldic matters? It might even count as a miracle in a course for his beatification if we were to see excellent papal arms…
Herladry does need a patron saint…
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/602241_576194545724410_286668608_n.jpg
A rendering by Marco Foppoli. Very well done. All those of you who have been caterwauling about the spikenard should be thrilled with this rendering.
gselvester;98012 wrote:
All those of you who have been caterwauling about the spikenard should be thrilled with this rendering.
Well, OF COURSE we are.
Now, let’s see if if the Vatican takes notice and changes theirs. Without that result, Foppoli’s rendition (regardless how beautiful and how correct) is useless in the grand scheme of things.
Heartily agree with Fr. Guy—Marco Foppoli’s emblazonment is so much better composed and rendered than the official one. Not the first or the last time that better versions will appear.
Kenneth Mansfield;98013 wrote:
Now, let’s see if if the Vatican takes notice and changes theirs.
They won’t so don’t hold your breath.
Michael F. McCartney;98004 wrote:
...(grapes or nard, whatever that is) ...
wiki wrote:
Spikenard (Nardostachys jatamansi); also called nard, nardin, and muskroot is a flowering plant of the Valerian family that grows in the Himalayas of Nepal, China, and India. It is used in the manufacture of an intensely aromatic amber-colored essential oil. The oil has, since ancient times, been used as a perfume, as a medicine and in religious contexts, particularly in connection with historical Judaism.
The Bible contains several references to the spikenard, and it is used in Catholic iconography to represent Saint Joseph. With this meaning, Pope Francis has included the spikenard in his coat of arms.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Nardostachys_grandiflora.jpg
—Guy
(no, not him! The OTHER Guy.)
