gselvester;98054 wrote:
The Prefect of the Pontifical Household always impales his arms with those of the current pope under whom he serves. So, his arms change whenever popes change. Archbishop Georg Gänswein is the current Prefect. His arms are shown below as they were when he adopted them just this past January under Benedict XVI and below that as they will appear now under Francis. That’s a whole lotta blue but, short of changing his personal arms, not much he can do about it.
http://imageshack.us/a/img716/1218/ggstem.jpg
Doesn’t the Pope get to pick his own houshold prefect?
steven harris;98087 wrote:
So basically back in 1992 newly-mitered Bishop Bergoglio desired to symbolize Saint Joseph with a spikenard blossom/flower on his arms and accordingly assumed arms with spikenard fruit/berries on it.
Everyone seems to fully acknowledge that this is flat-out incorrect – that the official description of the arms says a blossom/flower, while the official depiction of the arms bears fruit/berries – that these are not only non-interchangeable, but that they are very well contradictory.
I rather think that the Emperor has no clothes, unless His Holiness is prepared to extend his dogmatic infallibility to matters heraldic. :rolleyes:
It doesn’t have to be his dogmatic infallibility that is used. He is still the supreme legislator in the Church…even about heraldic matters. And all of you are continuing to define the words used in the explanation as they would be in English. Do you know for certain that the phrase in question couldn’t mean a sprig of nard which specifies neither a flower nor a berry? The point I already made above is that it does say flower in the explanation and it is depicted as the berries and the pope approved both which he has the authority to do (and it has nothing to do with being infallible) and there isn’t anything that any of you can do about it so arguing it endlessly is just an exercise in your own…vanity (for lack of a better term).
Would it be better if the explanation were more clear and identified beyond any doubt that there should be berries depicted in the arms? Yes. But it doesn’t.
steven harris;98088 wrote:
Doesn’t the Pope get to pick his own houshold prefect?
Yes and he may very well pick somebody new in the future. But, at the moment he hasn’t and Archbishop Gänswein holds the position so his arms change to reflect that.
gselvester;98091 wrote:
And all of you are continuing to define the words used in the explanation as they would be in English. Do you know for certain that the phrase in question couldn’t mean a sprig of nard which specifies neither a flower nor a berry?
It seems to me that it’s the assertion that fiore can also refer to fruit that needs to be proven. No one can prove the negative that it never means fruit, but I’m not finding much evidence to support the proposition that it can.
Case in point: Google for images using the term "fiore" and limit yourself to the dot-it (for Italy) domain and here’s what you get:
Lots of flowers, a couple of pictures of cheese mold, no fruit or generic sprigs of plants.
In any case, even if it can refer to the fruit, all that means is that an emblazonment depicting a flower is just as correct as one that depicts a berry. Working from the premise, of course, that blazon trumps emblazonment.
Quote:
The point I already made above is that it does say flower in the explanation and it is depicted as the berries and the pope approved both which he has the authority to do (and it has nothing to do with being infallible) and there isn’t anything that any of you can do about it so arguing it endlessly is just an exercise in your own…vanity (for lack of a better term).
Whatever it’s an exercise in, it’s most certainly in vain. But then so is everything else under the sun, so the Preacher tells us.
gselvester;98092 wrote:
Yes and he may very well pick somebody new in the future. But, at the moment he hasn’t and Archbishop Gänswein holds the position so his arms change to reflect that.
I would have thought that, like all of the other offices, that of Prefect of the Papal Household would have automatically became vacant at ‘sede vacante’, and that Francis would have then appointed his own (perhaps with Archbishop Gänswein remaining as personal secretary of Ratzinger/Benedict).
The holders of various offices do cease to function during the sede vacante. Pope Francis has reappointed everyone for the time being until further notice. Did you expect a new pope to appoint a new Prefect of the Pontifical Household immediately without even knowing how the Pontifical Household runs? I believe he is relying on Abp. Georg to help him make a smooth transition. This is not uncommon. Archbishop Harvey (now Cardinal Harvey) who previously held the post served under John Paul II and Benedict XVI. The late Cardinal Martin served under Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II.
Abp. Gänswein is remaining in his post as Prefect of the Pontifical Household and assisting Benedict XVI.
The arms of the late Jacques Cardinal Martin who served as a bishop as Prefect of the Pontifical Household under three different popes.
http://imageshack.us/a/img843/9653/martin1a.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/7744/martin2d.jpg
We should all be happy to see that a newer and far superior rendering of the pope’s coat of arms has now appeared on the Vatican website. This should especially be of interest to those of you who cared so much about the "flower of nard". I also think the star is rendered better. OK? OK?
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/elezione/img/stemma-papa-francesco.png
A complete explanation is also included on the website:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/elezione/stemma-papa-francesco_it.html
I posted the same info two minutes before but in the wrong thread, at http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6870&page=3. The image shown to the press by Fr. Lombardi
http://www.webalice.it/buldrini/Iagi/Stemma-F.jpg
was only a draft but he forgot to say….
Dear Friends,
I have no personal knowledge of the nard growing in the Holy Land or in Argentina. Remembering, however, that the valerian (valeriana officinalis) is also known as wild nard, I found this picture of an inflorescence
http://www.webalice.it/buldrini/Mix/Valeriana.jpg
I think it can explain why we have been baffled by the "bunch of grapes".
As the ox and the donkey of the crib, the legend of the flowered stick of St. Joseph comes from some apocryphal gospels (VI-VII century). The painting in which the flowers are more similar to the ones of the nard seems to be the "Marriage of the Virgin" by Pietro Vannucci (the Perugino), held in France in the Musée des Beaux-Arts in Caen, here in detail
http://www.webalice.it/buldrini/Iagi/Sposalizio.jpg
Ciao!
Guido
I should think we can all agree that either representation beats the heck out of cheese mold! Beyond that, how many herald angels can blazon on the head of a pin? I’m just happy knowing that it’s "nard" not "nerd"...
