St. John the Baptist Parish and School, Monaca PA

 
Alexander Schrenk
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Schrenk
Total Posts:  154
Joined  27-07-2011
 
 
 
25 April 2013 01:20
 

I am pleased to share with you all the results of my first heraldic commission. I designed a coat of arms for St. John the Baptist School in Monaca, PA. Midway through the process the pastor also asked for a coat of arms for the parish. I was happy to oblige.

http://i37.tinypic.com/dwvs5g.png

 

For the parish: Gules, three arrows crossed, Or, points to chief; surmounted by three scallop shells Or a fess wavy Azure.

 

For the school: Gules, three arrows crossed, Or, points to chief; surmounted by two scallop shells on either side of an open book all Or on a fess wavy Azure.

 

My blazons are probably not as elegant as they might be.

 

The pastor had some input as to how the final design emerged. Fortunately he had some sense of what makes for good heraldry. My initial design was essentially what you see, but with a "straight" fess and the charges all in Argent. The school’s colors are gold and maroon, however, so that ended up in the final design. (And yes, I have blazoned the field as Gules, because I am not a great fan of "fun" tinctures like Sanguine, for instance. I have emblazoned the shields here with a dark enough palette that the Gules looks maroon.)

 

A short explanation: the three arrows signify the town of Monaca, which is on the Ohio River near Pittsburgh, PA. (A folk etymology says that the name of the town came from an Indian word for "big arrow." I used three arrows instead of one big one for reasons of symbolism and symmetry.) The fess wavy has some significance to the Ohio River; and the three scallop shells are for St. John the Baptist. The book is added to the school coat of arms to add a difference.

 

The pastor was pleased with the outcome. He plans to have these added as patches to the school uniforms, put on parish and school stationery, and even, apparently, woven into a carpet.

 
Mark Olivo
 
Avatar
 
 
Mark Olivo
Total Posts:  536
Joined  23-02-2005
 
 
 
25 April 2013 02:35
 

Fantastic!  I will probably be a unique moment of pride to see your design on the uniforms of students!

On an aesthetic note, I simply love the designs.

 
gselvester
 
Avatar
 
 
gselvester
Total Posts:  2683
Joined  11-05-2004
 
 
 
25 April 2013 06:23
 

I agree with your choice on the tincture and the blazon.

But, something like Sanguine isn’t a "fun" or "optional" tincture. It is a stain and, as such, has a specific meaning. Specifically, the stains were, according to some scholars, used in abatements which were less-than-honorable changes to a coat of arms usually pointing out something rather shady or dodgy in the life of the armiger.

 

Stains are rarely used and don’t even appear at all in the heraldry of some countries. So, good move on avoiding them. I think they are often misused by contemporary heraldists and completely misunderstood.

 
Canon Bowyer
 
Avatar
 
 
Canon Bowyer
Total Posts:  18
Joined  11-04-2007
 
 
 
25 April 2013 11:52
 

The fess ought to have edges in either Argent or Or as to avoid the colour on colour rule. Otherwise a fine design.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
Avatar
 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
Total Posts:  2518
Joined  04-06-2007
 
 
 
25 April 2013 15:29
 

Canon Bowyer;98646 wrote:

The fess ought to have edges in either Argent or Or as to avoid the colour on colour rule. Otherwise a fine design.


Technically, yes, but you’re familiar I am sure with the old expression, "you have to know the rules to break the rules." This is one of those situations where rule-breaking works in my opinion. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by the addition of a fimbriation to the fess.

 
 
David Pope
 
Avatar
 
 
David Pope
Total Posts:  559
Joined  17-09-2010
 
 
 
25 April 2013 16:14
 

Alexander Schrenk;98642 wrote:

the three scallop shells are for St. John the Baptist.


Very attractive design!  I was curious about whether the fess violated the tincture rule as well, but my primary question is based on the symbolism.

 

I, perhaps wrongly, associate the scallop shell with St. James, and expected to see plates or plates/swords to symbolize John the Baptist.  Seeing the arrows and shells, my initial thought is "St. James and St. Sebastian School".

 
Dcgb7f
 
Avatar
 
 
Dcgb7f
Total Posts:  516
Joined  07-07-2007
 
 
 
26 April 2013 11:37
 

David Pope;98652 wrote:

I, perhaps wrongly, associate the scallop shell with St. James, and expected to see plates or plates/swords to symbolize John the Baptist.  Seeing the arrows and shells, my initial thought is "St. James and St. Sebastian School".

I imagine the scallop is a reference to the shell used to pour water in baptism, and hence John the Baptist.

May I suggest a slight blazon change?

 

Rather than "...surmounted by three scallop shells Or a fess wavy Azure", I think "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with three scallops Or" is better, and likewise, "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with an open book between two scallop shells Or".

 
Alexander Schrenk
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Schrenk
Total Posts:  154
Joined  27-07-2011
 
 
 
27 April 2013 10:22
 

Dcgb7f;98660 wrote:

I imagine the scallop is a reference to the shell used to pour water in baptism, and hence John the Baptist.

May I suggest a slight blazon change?

 

Rather than "...surmounted by three scallop shells Or a fess wavy Azure", I think "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with three scallops Or" is better, and likewise, "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with an open book between two scallop shells Or".


Your assessment of the symbolism of the shells is correct. It might be a departure from the traditional heraldic attributes of John the Baptist, but not a dramatic departure in any sense, I think. I was going to have a difficult time fitting head-bearing dishes on there, in any case.

 

And thank you for the modification of the blazon—that is more concise, and a tad less confusing.

 
Alexander Schrenk
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Schrenk
Total Posts:  154
Joined  27-07-2011
 
 
 
27 April 2013 10:24
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98650 wrote:

Technically, yes, but you’re familiar I am sure with the old expression, "you have to know the rules to break the rules." This is one of those situations where rule-breaking works in my opinion. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by the addition of a fimbriation to the fess.


I’m glad that you agree. I knew when I designed it that it wasn’t exactly kosher, but I thought the fimbriation—which I think would have to be Or—would look bizarre on top of the arrows Or. (Specifically, I thought it would make them look as if they were broken in half somehow at the edges of the fess.) So I said, to heck with it.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
27 April 2013 11:58
 

Dcgb7f;98660 wrote:

I imagine the scallop is a reference to the shell used to pour water in baptism, and hence John the Baptist.

May I suggest a slight blazon change?

 

Rather than "...surmounted by three scallop shells Or a fess wavy Azure", I think "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with three scallops Or" is better, and likewise, "...surmounted by a fess wavy Azure charged with an open book between two scallop shells Or".


May I suggest a slight blazon change to the slight blazon change? Just going for conciseness, not because there’s anything wrong with Daniel’s version:

 

"... on a fess wavy overall Azure three escallops Or…" and "... on a fess wavy overall Azure an open book between two escallops Or."

 

The tincture violation makes me a little uneasy, though.  Did you consider a gold field with red (maroon) arrows?

 
David Pope
 
Avatar
 
 
David Pope
Total Posts:  559
Joined  17-09-2010
 
 
 
27 April 2013 12:28
 

Joseph McMillan;98672 wrote:

The tincture violation makes me a little uneasy, though.  Did you consider a gold field with red (maroon) arrows?


Or perhaps a fess barry wavy argent and azure?  This would allude to the river as well as eliminating the need to change the current tinctures of the charges.

 
Alexander Schrenk
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Schrenk
Total Posts:  154
Joined  27-07-2011
 
 
 
27 April 2013 13:14
 

Joseph McMillan;98672 wrote:

May I suggest a slight blazon change to the slight blazon change? Just going for conciseness, not because there’s anything wrong with Daniel’s version:

"... on a fess wavy overall Azure three escallops Or…" and "... on a fess wavy overall Azure an open book between two escallops Or."

 

The tincture violation makes me a little uneasy, though.  Did you consider a gold field with red (maroon) arrows?


The more I look at it the more I agree this is well advised. I am going to run it past the pastor, and I hope he agrees.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
29 April 2013 00:03
 

I really like these!  Technically not entirely kosher, but as our Jewish chaplain put it, "If you want the ham sandwich, don’t ask the rabbi."

IMO it works well as is; any fimbriation or lack thereof can IMO be left to the artist’s discretion , & if used will hopefully be as thin as possible—e.g. on a flag, just a bit of gold stitching on the wavy seam.

 
Richard G.
 
Avatar
 
 
Richard G.
Total Posts:  451
Joined  26-07-2011
 
 
 
29 April 2013 08:43
 

Excellent designs, Alexander and congratulations on your first commission.

 
WBHenry
 
Avatar
 
 
WBHenry
Total Posts:  1078
Joined  12-02-2007
 
 
 
10 May 2013 10:39
 

Monaca is just across the river from me.  I look forward to seeing your work used on their uniforms (hopefully in the coming school year?).

 
Alexander Schrenk
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Schrenk
Total Posts:  154
Joined  27-07-2011
 
 
 
20 January 2014 16:15
 

WBHenry;98822 wrote:

Monaca is just across the river from me.  I look forward to seeing your work used on their uniforms (hopefully in the coming school year?).


I thought you all might be interested in seeing the arms in situ. I like that they went with a lighter shade for the azure on the maroon and navy polos than on the white ones.

 

http://s29.postimg.org/ofcq41k7b/St_John_s_Group_Photo.png