Ideas for a COA for the Tennessee Valley Scociety

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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22 May 2013 06:26
 

harold cannon;98942 wrote:

Details please. These have meaning behind the parts as well I have found if you go too simple you run into the "already taken problem".

Here is what it would look like in banner form.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7284/8779643042_87daa2c336_o.png


Harold,

 

I don’t think that I like this version as much as one where the saltire is a single tincture or where the division is per fess or per pale.  I find that crosses divided per cross and saltires divided per saltire don’t allow my eye a place to "rest".  The saltire ends up looking like a series of triangles, instead of a saltire.

 

Also, the cotton boll gets a bit lost on the Argent background.  I think I’d save that for a crest, if there will be one.

 

I’m not sure of the significance of the mullets Or, but they seem to offset the "wittiness" of using the mullets Argent in chief to symbolize Tennesee.  I think I’d forgo them.

 

I’m thinking that the shield should reflect:

 

1.  Alabama

2. Tennesesse

3.  Scotland

4. Tennessee River (since this is the natural feature that creates the region that the TVSS serves).

 

This was the reasoning behind my two previous blazon suggestions.

 

Hope that this helps.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 May 2013 08:55
 

harold cannon;98944 wrote:

You should have three points of difference from another set of arms to truly set them apart. This provides a good buffer. Also something to remember is that since heraldry is a world wide art there is more of a chance than you think of the arms being already used.


Thank you for the education in heraldry, Harold.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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22 May 2013 09:38
 

Thanks David! That is helpful!!!!!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 May 2013 09:43
 

harold cannon;98944 wrote:

Simple designs run a higher risk of being already used just as everyone thought David Pope’s arms were good to go, only to find out that they were too similar to another set of arms for his taste.


"For his taste," not because they actually infringed someone elses’s rghts.


Quote:

You should have three points of difference from another set of arms to truly set them apart.


Who says? Barry Gules and Argent has only one point of difference from Barry Azure and Argent, but is entirely, unmistakably different. The "rule" on X number of points of difference has to do with differencing existing arms for use by a stranger in blood. And I have no idea were "three" comes from.

 

Another over-mathematized rule that people sometimes propose is that no new coat of arms should have more than X number of elements (repetition of the same charge counting as the same element). I happen to think that heraldic design is an art that can’t be codified with mathematical precision, but I would say that this principle tends to yield better compositions than the one claiming that every coat of arms must have X number of differences from any other, including those with which it cannot conceivably be confused.


Quote:

Also something to remember is that since heraldry is a world wide art there is more of a chance than you think of the arms being already used.


Harold, once you’ve been doing this for a while, you get a feel for which charges and formats are frequently found and which aren’t. David’s two chevronels and a canton is a reasonably common format. A saltire surmounted by a bar/fess wavy isn’t, nor is a saltire cotised, nor is an iris as a charge.

 

I haven’t searched, but would be willing to bet that the arms Argent a chevron wavy reversed Azure, in chief a thistle proper do not come close to infringing any others. Thistle for Scotland, chevron a stylized map of the river. Not only would I be willing to bet, but I will bet: I’ll donate $50 to your society if you find it duplicated somewhere else.

 

No need to symbolize the two political jurisdictions, but if you want to, how about in the crest? Say, On a circlet of fleurs-de-lis Purpure, a yellowhammer (northern flicker) rising proper.

 

Or on a badge: Four fleurs-de-lis saltirewise Purpure surmounted of a hammer palewise Or.


Quote:

Now please only constructive suggestions on changes that would make them better, instead of comments that can seem harsh and non-educational in typed format.


Sorry, can’t sign up for that.  If someone asks "what do you think," and I think it’s hideous, I will feel totally free to say "it’s hideous, try again."  Some things don’t lend themselves to tweaking.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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22 May 2013 10:06
 

The rule of "three differences for an indeterminate cadet" is said to apply in Scotland. My arms as an indeterminate Dempster cadet are a prime example of the rule in action wink

James

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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22 May 2013 10:10
 

What about this?

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=72&pictureid=1995

 

Scotland, Alabama, Tennessee….

 

If you want to allude to the river, change it to "a saltire wavy Argent"...

 
harold cannon
 
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22 May 2013 10:19
 

David I do like that but my only concern is that is has a similar look of the Confederate Battle Flag, even thought the blue and red have changed places. We have to be quite careful about that here as some are probably over sensative to images of similar looks. This was similar to one of my first sketches but there was concern over that issue.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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22 May 2013 10:26
 

James Dempster;98949 wrote:

The rule of "three differences for an indeterminate cadet" is said to apply in Scotland. My arms as an indeterminate Dempster cadet are a prime example of the rule in action wink

James


Well, so are mine, for that matter.  But this is a rule designed to insure that the new arms look like, but not too much like, someone else’s (the stem arms of the name).  In the present case, the objective seems to be that they must not look like anyone else’s at all.

 

If we applied the "rule" adduced by Harold to Scottish personal arms, Innes and Murray would violate one another, as would Campbell, MacTavish, and Matheson, as would all the variety of families that bear a simple lion rampant.

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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22 May 2013 10:30
 

harold cannon;98951 wrote:

David I do like that but my only concern is that is has a similar look of the Confederate Battle Flag, even thought the blue and red have changed places. We have to be quite careful about that here as some are probably over sensative to images of similar looks. This was similar to one of my first sketches but there was concern over that issue.


Right, I had neglected that consideration.  One additional option, although I don’t like it as much as my earlier suggestions:

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=72&pictureid=1996

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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22 May 2013 10:57
 

Thanks David! This isnt a bad option at all.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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22 May 2013 11:35
 

harold cannon;98936 wrote:

Kenneth, I like this idea. Is there something that could be put in the other spaces of the cross?  They seem a little dead to me.

Not to appear touchy, but I think this statement is completely unfounded. The division per fess does provide "something" in the flanks. Space itself is something that seems to be taken for granted by the novice and there seems to be a need to fill it all up with stuff - in all design pursuits, not just heraldry - which is of course altogether different from the correct idea that charges ought to "fill the space", which is another mistake. But I digress.

Anyway, here is David’s suggestion for giving it a little more visual interest.

 

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9711/tvss01b.png

 

And David’s earlier suggestion, which he didn’t illustrate, but which I like far more than his more recent offerings. (Sorry, David.)

 

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5306/tvssdp02.png

 

And those from Joe’s bet, which are simple and distinctive even if a bit bland.

 

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5483/tvssjm02.png

 

I would pick any of these three over the "restless" arms illustrated on page 2 of this thread.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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22 May 2013 12:20
 

Though I am usually loathe to employ the use of fimbriation to place a color on a color, I think if you take David’s concept from post #21 and make it more overtly reference Tennessee, and then add the thistles as he did in post #24 (only white on a blue field this time), you wind up with something that’s not bad and also doesn’t conjure images of the Confederacy.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2241/tvssdp04b.png

 
 
David Pope
 
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22 May 2013 13:03
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98955 wrote:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9711/tvss01b.png

 


Kenneth,

 

I really like this one.  Thanks for the emblazonment.

 

I wonder what it would look like if the thistle was gules…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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22 May 2013 13:35
 

FWIW (since I’m not from any of the relevant places) the last design above—per fess wavy etc—is my favorite of the lot.

Making the thistle all red would probably also look nice - or maybe the blue & the thistle both purple?  (better for the thistle, hopefullty "close enough" for the azure)

 
PBlanton
 
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22 May 2013 15:45
 

harold cannon;98951 wrote:

David I do like that but my only concern is that is has a similar look of the Confederate Battle Flag, even thought the blue and red have changed places. We have to be quite careful about that here as some are probably over sensative to images of similar looks. This was similar to one of my first sketches but there was concern over that issue.


Actually, the tinctures don’t have to change places at all if you’re from the Trans-Mississippi Department (like us Missourians):

 

http://www.ultimateflags.com/images/P/army-trans-mississippi-flag.jpg

 

I have to agree with the above gentlemen in that I really like the Per fess wavy Azure and Argent &c. I also agree that the fess wavy fills the flanks quite nicely. The three (and four) thistles version(s) feel a bit too busy to me and make me want to "weed" the fields. grin

 

Take care,

-Phil