Has the board shortlisted possible cities for the 2014 AGM??

Benjamin Thornton;99490 wrote:

Has the board shortlisted possible cities for the 2014 AGM??

We would obviously like to have some historic and heraldic attractions. Unless I am misremembering (which my wife assures me is possible) the short list includes, but is not necessarily limited to, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington DC.

I think Phila & Boston were named in connection with another proposed initiative (stay tuned).  We’ll discuss possibilities for the annual meeting location.  I do note that the National Genealogical Society will be holding its annual meeting in Richmond in May.  It may make sense to piggyback on something that may attract outside folks to our event.

gselvester;99485 wrote:

The point is, Dave, one doesn’t celebrate the anniversary of when a thing was conceived but when it was accomplished…otherwise you’d celebrate the beginning of your life nine months earlier than you actually do and not on your birthday.

I think I understand your point, Father Guy, but I just don’t agree with your assessment of the facts. From my own recollections and the record of the rec.heraldry newsgroup that is kept by Google (which I have no reason to assume is inaccurate), Trey Shehan did "proclaim and announce the establishment of the American Heraldry Society" on 5 November 2003. I was a member of the society within a day. Two kids saying that they’ve formed a society may not be much, but I’d say that it was as official as any other date. The fact that we were incorporated the following June meant that we were officially recognized as a corporate body by the government of Colorado (I think that’s where we first incorporated), but it did not conjure us into existence.

When I was writing up my summary of events yesterday evening, the AHS website supported my account of events and said that in 2003 Trey Shehan was the acting president and that I was the president from 2003-2004. Looking at the AHS site now, it seems that the list of past directors was changed at 11:35 this morning. The history of the society on that page now begins in 2004. Perhaps someone with authority to change the website has already decided that those first few months don’t count.

Peace,

Dave

David Boven;99500 wrote:

I think I understand your point, Father Guy, but I just don’t agree with your assessment of the facts. The fact that we were incorporated the following June meant that we were officially recognized as a corporate body by the government of Colorado (I think that’s where we first incorporated), but it did not conjure us into existence.

I’m not disputing the facts. I’m asserting that Trey’s "proclamation" has relatively little real significance. I’m not denying that Nov. 5, 2003 is accepted as the moment that this idea was first floated as a real possibility and things began to gain momentum. But, at that point it was just him. I’m not particularly interested in the moment the Society was conjured as an idea. It didn’t become a recognized corporate body (our official and legal name is The American Heraldry Society, Inc.) until June 4, 2004. I don’t think you can dismiss incorporation as a mere formality. So I don’t dispute that some feel Nov. 5, 2003 is when this whole thing really began. I’m saying that despite that we should celebrate the anniversary of our incorporation as the anniversary of our beginning.

After reading the arguments, I agree with incorporation date being the formal anniversary date. With that being said, I feel that the November 5th, 2003 should be included in any formal declaration and into the formal history of the society. From what I have read, it seems that there are individuals that played a major part in the formation of this society and that should be given formal recognition for their actions and participation in getting the society heading towards incorporation.

gselvester;99501 wrote:

I’m not disputing the facts. I’m asserting that Trey’s "proclamation" has relatively little real significance. I’m not denying that Nov. 5, 2003 is accepted as the moment that this idea was first floated as a real possibility and things began to gain momentum. But, at that point it was just him. I’m not particularly interested in the moment the Society was conjured as an idea. It didn’t become a recognized corporate body (our official and legal name is The American Heraldry Society, Inc.) until June 4, 2004. I don’t think you can dismiss incorporation as a mere formality. So I don’t dispute that some feel Nov. 5, 2003 is when this whole thing really began. I’m saying that despite that we should celebrate the anniversary of our incorporation as the anniversary of our beginning.

Dear Father Guy,

It doesn’t look like either of us is going to be able to change the other’s mind. I never accused you of asserting different facts. I noted that I didn’t agree with your assessment of them. It is a little disappointing that you think Trey’s foundation of the Society is insignificant. When I joined the Society within a day (along with others), we officially had a Society. It may not have been grand enough to warrant your attention, but it was the American Heraldry Society. In the incorporation documents that I still have from 2004, we were simply called the American Heraldry Society. If we’re going to base the commemoration of our founding on when we became our current incarnation of American Heraldry Society, Inc., then we should probably commemorate the first time that we incorporated in Texas (i2007, I think?). It does seem that we are both looking at the same set of data and interpreting them in different ways. I would rather commemorate the founding of the Society and you would rather commemorate the incorporation of the Society. Those are both valid viewpoints (mine is just better and righter ). As I said, it doesn’t look like we’re making much progress, so I’ll just leave my argument here. If you want the last word between us, you can take it, but I’ll leave it to the rest of the membership to voice its opinion to the board for a final decision on the commemoration.

Peace,

Dave

P.S. - I certainly reserve the right to respond again if some brilliant idea hits me in the middle of the night and I develop an airtight argument that cannot be disputed!

As you may recall, the Texas incorporation was necessary because Colorado did not permit Internet meetings, which somehow overlooked the attention of the organizers, who based everything on the Internet, in 2004. Everyone on the board and the membership that participated at the time explictly agreed that it was not considered a "new" incorporation and did not affect the continuing nature of the Society.

The old Tripod website that David posted the archived link to says "The society was suggested by Trey Shehan on November 4, 2003 on Usenet, in the newsgroup rec.heraldry. It stemmed out of a discussion regarding the establishment of official heraldry bodies for the respective states in the United States, and was formally proposed by Trey Shehan on November 5th, in the same newsgroup."

So, even despite Shehan’s "formal" announcement, it appears that the Society itself at the time did not conceive that it had been founded on Nov. 5, 2003. There were debates about dues, proper name, etc., that all suggest the nature of the discussions were of the type found in a mass meeting—I would suggest that what occurred between Nov. 5, 2003, and June 4, 2004, was a proto-Society. The name apparently was not settled on Nov. 5, 2003, because the "mass meeting" took another poll in February 2004 to determine whether the name should be our current one or "The Heraldry Society of the United States" because of a fraudulent American Heraldry Society that scammed people during the Depression. The bylaws were not adopted until sometime after February 2004. It seems that the bylaws were adopted as the predicate to incorporation, which is procedurally incorrect but not unlawful, the Society was not "founded" until it was incorporated.

I am inclined to concur with Guy that the formal date of founding is the date the Society was incorporated in Colorado: June 4, 2004.

Nov. 2003 announcement : done with law school. can’t practice law

Spring 2004 by-laws : passed the bar exam. still can’t practice law

June 2004 incorporation : swearing-in. boom. you’re a lawyer. congratulations!

We celebrate July 4 as the "birthday" of America, not the adoption of the Articles of Confederation (analogous to our first incorporation) or the Constitution (e.g. our current incorporation) or Concord Bridge or Yorktown or the Treaty of Paris.

IMO Nov 2003 is most nearly analogous to July 4, but can live with whatever the board decides, so long as the full history before and after the decided-upon date is also remembered.

The debate (my comments too) are starting to remind me of "when life begins"—with conception?  with viability?  with live birth?  Or maybe, the best one I remember, when the kids move out and the dog dies?

To me, the founding date of an organization depends on (1) more than one person being an active participant, and (2) continuous identity.  Since a club or society in the US need not be incorporated at all, it seems to me that the date of incorporation should not be dispositive.

Trey Sheehan had people signing up as members of his newly "proclaimed" AHS within hours of the proclamation, and the AHS as we know it today is not only the lineal successor but the uninterrupted continuation of the group that Trey founded on November 5, 2003.  I therefore believe that 11/5/03 is the legitimate date of establishment of the AHS.

Joseph McMillan;99546 wrote:

To me, the founding date of an organization depends on (1) more than one person being an active participant, and (2) continuous identity.  Since a club or society in the US need not be incorporated at all, it seems to me that the date of incorporation should not be dispositive.

Trey Sheehan had people signing up as members of his newly "proclaimed" AHS within hours of the proclamation, and the AHS as we know it today is not only the lineal successor but the uninterrupted continuation of the group that Trey founded on November 5, 2003.  I therefore believe that 11/5/03 is the legitimate date of establishment of the AHS.

So says the President!

Now, let’s carry on with the more fun topic: What are we going to do in celebration of the 10th anniversary? Anything?

Jeremy Keith Hammond;99547 wrote:

So says the President!

Ah, but a president in the spirit of Washington, Coolidge, and Eisenhower.  Our by-laws provide for no infinitely expansible commander-in-chief powers.

I just want to know where the party is in enough time to finally meet some of you folks…

Who’s bringing the alcohol?

: stares at the Board :