I am designing arms for a friend whose forbearers in America bore English arms. He is not in direct line so I am designing derivative arms. The original arms are Argent, on a bend azure cotised sable three crescents or. I have modified these arms as: Argent a Bend cotised Sable per Pale counterchanged, overall in Bend three Crescents Or. This results in one Crescent Or upon Argent in the sinister quarter. Is this completely unacceptable, or may I construe the three crescents to be a single charge upon the field. The emblazonment, by the way, is totally recognizable.

I also posted this on the IAAH Forum.

If I’m picturing this correctly you will actually have one & a half gold crescents on a white background.  The gold on white won’t show up well and therefore misses the spirit (i.e. the underlying reason) for the tincture rule, whether or not it’s technically in violation.  There may be historical examples of gold on white or vice-versa, but for a new design IMO it’s not a good idea.

How about making the crescents also Argent and counterchanging the whole thing?

My opnions only, others may see it differently.

I would support Michael’s suggestion.

I do not feel that there is any good reason for creating arms that deliberately flout a basic design convention.

Regards,

Iain Boyd

larrysnyder;102121 wrote:

I am designing arms for a friend whose forbearers in America bore English arms. He is not in direct line so I am designing derivative arms. The original arms are Argent, on a bend azure cotised sable three crescents or. I have modified these arms as: Argent a Bend cotised Sable per Pale counterchanged, overall in Bend three Crescents Or. This results in one Crescent Or upon Argent in the sinister quarter. Is this completely unacceptable, or may I construe the three crescents to be a single charge upon the field. The emblazonment, by the way, is totally recognizable.

I also posted this on the IAAH Forum.

Ditto Mike and Iain on the tincture issue.

On the genealogy:  you say your friend’s ancestors in America bore English arms, but that he is not in the direct line.  I’m not sure what that means.

Do you mean he is not in the direct male line from Giles or William Dyer, who bore approximately these arms?  (I see the original painting of these arms in the Gore Roll differently from David Appleton; the bend and the cotises both look sable to me.  But whatever.)  If he descends from one of these two only in the female line, then the Dyer arms should be irrelevant to your friend’s design.

Do you mean he descends from a brother or cousin of Giles or William?  If so, then perhaps a differenced version of their arms is appropriate, but first I’d look higher up the genealogical tree to see if there is a common male-line ancestor who bore the arms.

If all you mean is that he’s not a first son of a first son, etc., but is provably descended through junior male lines, then your friend is fully justified in using the arms exactly as they appear in the Gore Roll.  At most he might apply a very minor difference, such as a charge in chief or engrailing the bend or adding a bordure.

What you’ve proposed here seems to be neither fish nor fowl.

Some genealogical info would be helpful, if sharing it here would be OK with the family concerned.

We wouldn’t really need a lot of data, certainly nothing that would compromise the privacy of the current (living) generations unless they choose to share it.  If we knew a little about the earliest generations in America - e.g. the surnames of the immigrant and/or 2nd generation husbands & wives, maybe the occupations or military service or other notable info, we might be better able to suggest charges or design themes that would be meangful to their descendants.

Since there were apparently historical arms somewhere in the foliage of the family tree, knowing just where they fit in could be quite helpful.  As Joe notes, if the relevant surname is the same, these historical arms might be appropriate for current use either as is or with some miinor variations.  If the arms are from a maternal ancestor, it might be possible to borrow from or combine (compose) elements of those arms into a new design appropriate for the paternal line.

I’m guessing that Larry has already gone through some of these considerations, but fresh eyes here, with a little background info, might be better able to offer possible suggestions that might (or might not) appeal to the family directly concerned.  In the end, of course it’s that family who will decide.  And however it turns out, it’s great fun for us to play herald!

Thank you all for your comments. We have decided on using: Ermine a Bend cotised Sable per Pale counterchanged, overall in Bend.

three Crescents Or. As to the genealogy, we are still working through the possible link to Giles Dyer (Boston 1713) of Joseph Dyer (1653-1704 who arrived in Boston ca. 1690.