So I designed arms for myself and my siblings but after discovering this site I think I may have messed up on a few rules. Wanted to know what I can do about it if i have.
On mine, I have a green shield with a gold border. Blazoned with a wolf’s head and a moon behind it. Both colored the natural colors (so gray wolf, yellow eyes, white crescent moon) I’m fairly certain there is nothing wrong with that but then the other stuff. I chose not to use the typical jousting helmet. I preferred a simpler iron cap. I also didn’t have much interest in the crest. I put a very small cross on top just to say i had one. I also replaced the torse and tattered mantle with yet another more simplistic feature. A plain brown cloak with a hood, held up by belt straps.—- I hope that doesn’t imply nobility…. because I specifically chose a plain brown cloak and hood so that it would look common. (also i like brown haha)—- anyway, I just wanted to know if that was allowed, to use a plain iron cap, and a plain brown cloak, and a small plain cross. I know i read that you cant use a helm reserved for nobility and I didn’t. and i also read that while some cultures prefer the crest to be very specific and unique other’s simply don’t care at all about it.
One last thing about mine before i get into my siblings arms, and actually its a question about all three of them. We had put supports on them. I realize now this is tremendously discouraged. But our supports were nothing too special. Mine was a sword crossing a farmers hoe. My brothers two swords, and my sisters some arrows. No animals or castle towers, and really the main reason we did it was because if our shield and helm were to appear we wanted our tools to appear as well. I know there isn’t technically a rule saying you CANT give a support and would like to know if ours are simplistic enough to not appear as if we are claiming nobility. If they are, is it OK to just not include them in the blazon, but to depict them if we want in a particular illustration? what should we do about it?
—- also I hope I’m not asking too many questions. I will leave at this for now and ask the other specific question i had about my brother and sisters arms after.
-thankyou
Welcome! I’ll try to address some of your questions; others here may see things somewhat differently- that’s part of the value of an open exchange like this.
In no particular order: your design sounds interesting but a little hard to visualize without more specifity. For example, is the wolf’s head depicted from the side, or facing the viewer? And if from the side, is the neck cut clean ("couped") or torn with a jagged edge ("erased")? Any of these options is OK, but considered to be heraldically different, i.e. technically sufficient to constitute different coats of arms.
The natural grey coloring ("proper" I.e naturally colored) is fine, so long as there is enough visual contrast with the green shield, which shouldn’t be a problem if you use a fairly dark shade of green. Heraldically green is green ("vert is vert") so it’s up to the artist to choose a shade that produces a clear visual contrast.
Unclear just where & how the crescent moon is placed. Is it ( or ) or like a boat, and is it around or under the wolf’s head? Again, any of these is OK but needs to be specified since they are heraldically different. If you can describe in layman’s words we can translate into heraldic blazon.
Whatever type of helmet you prefer is OK in American practice so long as it’s not one of the types that signify nobility or knighthood in foreign countries. It isn’t part of the blazon, it’s just artistic license and can vary from time to time, or can be left out if desired in any particular rendition.
Crests are optional, though most arms include one. If you do have a crest, it can be shown or omitted in any particular rendition. Your brown mantling with a belt instead of a wreath is most unusual, but I’ll defer comment for now.
The gold border would suggest a younger brother if your family were of British (especially Scottish) origin, but given your surname that seems unlikely! My guess is that the border is OK for you, but I don’t know just which Eastern European nation it’s from, nor am I all that familiar with their heraldic traditions. (It’s not mandatory to follow the old country rules, but we should at least consider whether we’re implying something unintended.)
As to the tools or weapons, which I assume are crossed X behind each shield - they’re technically not "supporters" that we would consider inappropriate in America, but there are some countries in Europe that use them to signify various higher military positions such as field marshalls or admirals, etc. In this country I wouldn’t include them in a blazon, but in informal private use within your family and friends , why not? Note that they wouldn’t signify heraldic differences between siblings to anyone but you; and in any case differencing within the same family in this country is optional and usually not done here.
As noted, others here may have some what different views, which they will hopefully share.
With regard to the swords and arrows in saltire behind the shield, I recommend steering clear of swords denoting particular status or membership the armiger doesn’t rate. For example, don’t use a USMC NCO sword or an army officer’s sword unless he’s a gunny or has a commission in the Army. Similarly, a sword of the Knights of Columbus would be improper unless a member. A generic claymore or German forest sword would be fine.
cool! i cant believe i got replies so quickly 
these are very helpful.
Yes, i know i need to describe the wolf more, it wasnt my main question thats why i didnt. but i can describe it, actually i could even post the picture. haha. its facing dexter, erased. the nose is pointing down a bit (but i dont think thats something important, just the way i drew it) the wolf is sort of on top of the moon. the moon opens to the dexter side and the way i drew it the shape of the wolf’s head sort of makes up the top part of the crescent. (again not sure if thats important, something that can be blazoned that specifically, just the way i drew it). there is a bit of concern with the color contrast in that the moon and wolf head are… close in color. white and gray. i need to play around with the color and see if i can work something out.
as for the crest and helmet, that is what i was expecting to hear. good to know! and yea, my cloak and hood is a funny choice. haha. but i wanted it to look like something i would use. my shield, my helm, my sword, my cloak. its unconventional but then, its not apart of the blazon itself is it? so i’m guessing its just up to the artist (who is me haha).
my last name is Mrdjenovic haha, not paul, thats my middle name. its Serbian. i hadnt realized a bordure denoted certain things in some countries. honestly i just thought it looked great on the shield. (i have to post a picture).
yes the sword and hoe in mine, (and the two swords in my brothers, and the 5 arrows in my sisters) are crossed like a saltire. glad to know they arent too inappropriate haha. if i COULD include them in the blazon i would still like too, but i dont really have too. simply including them in my own art when i draw an image of them is good enough. and no, the swords are not from anything specific, they were uniquely designed. i found a site all about the different types of swords and styles of blades, handles, pommels, crossbars and what time period they were used. i designed my own from that, and my brother designed his own.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203495081489291&set=pb.1581374523.-2207520000.1420426100.&type=3&src=https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10448697_10203495081489291_472089003574769270_o.jpg&smallsrc=https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10419016_10203495081489291_472089003574769270_n.jpg?oh=731132c555ea738c5db0862b0163c73f&oe=55357B4B&size=2048,1584
hmm, i tried to share an image of my arms but it seems to have not worked. well… i will figure that out after. i will move on to a question about my brothers.
so his is, a gold cross (like the ordinary) the first and fourth quarter are blue. the first quarter has a 5 pointed star with 5 spikes in the indents. the 4th quarter has a gear to represent he is an engineer. (er, that star is just his own design. i guess you could say it just represents him?) the second and third quarters are red. the second quarter with the roman eagle carrying the thunderbolt (because we are italian) and the third quarter… well… this is the part we are 98 percent sure we did wrong. we put the arms of serbia in it not realizing that probably means he is pretending to be a prince. im guessing we should replace that with simply the two headed serbian eagle… without it carrying the shield with the cross and 4 letter "B"s on it. that might be a better, less usurping, symbol for our serbian heritage.
the other question is, is his pattern, with the field divided by the cross, and half the quarters red, and the other half blue, ok? he really wanted all 3 colors in there, red, blue, and gold (the cross and 3 of the 4 charges are gold. the serbian eagle is silver only because thats the color its supposed to be) i saw there was an arms on here that had that same pattern going on. (different charges of course) but idk, maybe that guy has a better reason to divide the field like that? what do you guys think?—- his helmet and mantling is much more normal by the way haha. i told him "dont do the weird thing like me, im not entirely sure im even allowed". so his is quite normal.
if i can figure out how to post a picture, i will post all three images for everyone to see.
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10419016_10203495081489291_472089003574769270_n.jpg?oh=a4451bdd0b7f88d2c656bcb728843731&oe=552E9B35
HAHA! i got it to work. ok here are the other two arms.
my brother’s
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1554364_10203495081289286_1240672009357340798_n.jpg?oh=d5edb4068dbc338e238fb2ea64bcf678&oe=55248852&__gda__=1429451927_e8a152eef5a6c95ae4847155d03351b2
and my sister’s
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10442900_10203495080089256_8029610931985350378_n.jpg?oh=9614a7bd439bf1509747f789012a097f&oe=553F118A&__gda__=1429602353_9d4574c9bef60a751844992c3c9d65f1
yea she has weird bird wing things going on. not sure what to say or think about that. ... just… have at that with your opinions. haha
her name is Rose btw, in case the visual pun didnt give that away
Greetings!
Ditto what Michael and Mark said earlier.
I’ll address my thoughts in groups:
Overall. First, by having such unique arms for each member of the family, I think you’ve missed one of the tenants of heraldry which does tend to show family alliance. Of course each person can have completely unique and unrelated arms, but.. as close of an alliance as brother and sister, I generally would not recommend doing so. Second, although you stated your crests are unimportant to you, these are absurdly small. I suggest you lose them all together, make them a size which doesn’t "look" like they are irrelevant (because most armigers will on first viewing believe you have little knowledge of emblazon and not know you don’t care about them), or get the shields straight then do concentrate on meaningful crests. In fact, your cross could easily be taken as part of the helm as depicted here
Emblazon of your arms. two comments: First, the positioning of wolf and moon are a bit difficult, IMHO - how do you describe them so an artist, having only a blazon, can generally reproduce them? Second, although the cloak itself isn’t a problem, I think I would have it more like a cloak and less like a pavilion (losing the belt "gatherings" on either side). That would be just a personal preference.
The Helm and Cloak would be part of the blazon if you wanted them to consistently be rendered by an artist. The cross implements behind I would not recommend being part of the blazon and I’d have at least one emblazon without them.
Your Brother’s arms.Generally it is considered very bad form to use a well known national symbol in heraldry such as the shield of Serbia in a quarter.
The quarters in base appear to be "running off" the shield. Unless you blazon the partials, any other artist will put the full charges on the shield.
Your sister’s arms. Just because it is one of my primary functions here - You are aware that a woman is not limited to a lozenge shaped shield in heraldry, correct? I personally believe it is an absurd sexist practice started in some jurisdictions some 400ish years ago which is well past its usefulness and propriety (rant over).
The Rose as depicted is not what I would consider a heraldic rose. This is, of course, up to you, but an artist familiar with heraldry will probably emblazon it differently if given a blazon.
The arrows and wings should not be in the blazon and could be considered artistic embellishment, but she should have at least one version without them.
It is unclear if the star is meant as a crest when the emblazon has neither helm nor torse. If she is an unwed lady, generally artists add a ribbon (traditionally blue - but can be any color) as a bow.
Those are my initial thoughts.. I’m sure there will be others or opposing ones..
Hi!, thank you for the input Kathy
I think losing the crests is probably best haha. I really just think the idea of a crest on a helmet is a bit silly. I’m not riding into a jousting tournament any time soon so its purpose seems non existent. They tend to be large and flamboyant and detract from the stuff i find important.
My brothers arms, yes, haha, the Serbian shield was a fail on our part. But do you think using the two headed eagle by itself is ok? Or is the roman eagle ok by itself? I could remove the roman eagle’s thunderbolts if that makes it any better too. The bottom charges running off the page i thought looked cool… but… my brother generally disagreed so i suppose when i do it over i wont do that again… XD
My sisters, well when she first heard about the lozenge she was also enraged… but then… she thought about and she was all "no, you know what, its unique, I like that its unique, and lozenge is a cool word, I like that. I think I will use the lozenge! I like that the female’s is different!"—- she became oddly attached to it haha. And i told her from the beginning "It’s only tradition, but there is no rule saying you cant use the cooler shield" ... she likes underdogs, maybe she sees the lozenge as the underdog? idk haha.
Now for all the background stuff I think I will just leave it as artistic embellishment. Except for two things… if you could explain how I would write in a blazon to use a brown cloak and hood rather than a tattered mantle, I would like to do so. But if there just isn’t a way, I can leave it out, and if some other artist chooses to do it with a regular mantle i wont whine about it.
But then, there is my sisters crest. Yes, the star was meant to be a crest, and its essential to the whole thing. You see, the Rose Charge is Love, the cross ordinary is Faith, and the Star crest was meant to be hope. And all three of these elements are working together as a visual pun with her motto which is "but the greatest of these is love"—-also yes, I told her many times that if anyone else were to draw it the rose would look like a usual heraldic rose. And she said "I dont care, I think the heraldic rose looks dumb, when you draw it for me, design a better one."—- so i did. If there is any way at all to blazon that specific rose i would but I don’t believe there is. She will have to suck it up. But as far as my artistic rendering goes, this is the rose she wants.
As for my charge. Well, I’m not too worried about the moon and wolf being of similar color as I did intend the two to work together as a single unified charge. I was thinking of blazoning it as this "a wolf head erased, dexter facing, on top a crescent, dexter facing, both colored proper"—- I think that is the best way to do it. I know another artist will not perfectly render the charge the exact same way as I have done. But the essential image, of a wolf’s head atop a crescent moon, will be there. And for the purpose of heraldry, I think that will do. What does everyone think?
oh, and as far as them all looking different. idk, from my reading it seems family ties is NOT what is meant most importantly by a coat of arms. But is something a lot of people assume. From what I’ve been reading on here and else where is that its primarily a personal symbol. Of course they can be passed down to children, but they don’t have to be, and i don’t have any to inherit. So i don’t see why each of us should start our own heraldic image. I made mine by myself, and my brother made his by himself, I didn’t even realize he was making one too. My sister made hers with my help as she needed help deciding what she wanted but what she eventually came up with is very her. and mine is very me, and our brothers is very him. Our dad agreed they were very much what he expected out of each of us. They certainly don’t seem to represent anyone other than each of us, the potential armigers in question
—- note, spellcheck says that armiger should be "warmongers". i find that hilarious. lol felt like sharing haha
ShaunPaul;103359 wrote:
oh, and as far as them all looking different. idk, from my reading it seems family ties is NOT what is meant most importantly by a coat of arms. But is something a lot of people assume. From what I’ve been reading on here and else where is that its primarily a personal symbol. Of course they can be passed down to children, but they don’t have to be, and i don’t have any to inherit. So i don’t see why each of us should start our own heraldic image. I made mine by myself, and my brother made his by himself, I didn’t even realize he was making one too. My sister made hers with my help as she needed help deciding what she wanted but what she eventually came up with is very her. and mine is very me, and our brothers is very him. Our dad agreed they were very much what he expected out of each of us. They certainly don’t seem to represent anyone other than each of us, the potential armigers in question
Hi Shaun,
First, I would agree with Kathy on your brother and sister’s arms. I agree that women should not be limited to a lozenge but then again, some women such as my mother liked the idea of having feminine arms that looked somewhat feminine. She’s old school, what can I say?
As to your own arms, what you have drawn on the shield would make an AWESOME logo but is somewhat stylized for arms and, as Kathy said makes blazoning difficult. I do think you could register that as a logo of sorts or at the very least a trademark.
I would also agree with Kathy that arms are a great way to establish a family tradition. While you are under no obligations to assume the same arms, you could still find some symbolism that would tie you all together. I encourage you to take a look at Kathy’s family at the Armorial Registry of International Arms
featuring " in chief two ravens transfixed by a single arrow fesswise point to sinister Or" that runs throughout all of the arms. You could also look at the Schweitzer family arms in the Society’s armorial.
As you say you are welcome to assume whatever arms you will but you also have a rare opportunity to create something beautiful and lasting with your siblings.
Ditto above. You can blazon Ross’s rose as a Garden rose, and add a wreath Argent and Gules below the star.
I don’t see why you can’t just blazon your mantling as Brown (or the equivalent heraldic term - my mind is blanking). Strongly agree with Kathy that bunching the corners up into a pavilion is inappropriate in an American context - we discourage using elements suggesting noble or princely rank which is what a pavilion usually denotes.
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Hi!, thank you for the input Kathy
I think losing the crests is probably best haha. I really just think the idea of a crest on a helmet is a bit silly. I’m not riding into a jousting tournament any time soon so its purpose seems non existent. They tend to be large and flamboyant and detract from the stuff i find important.
Again, it’s up to you, but with your commentary on your sister’s star being very important, and knowing that most femme arms do not include crest, yet she wishes a lozenge, her arms are becoming quite a mixture of "what you want" vs. following some rather specific tradition of female arms. Which is OK, but the Star would need to be placed on a torse if she consistently wishes it to be considered a crest and not an embellishment of some sort. Also, she may want to consider a cartouche (which can be considered either femme or ecclesiastic, depending on where and when). But if "crests" are generally unimportant, perhaps considering integrating the star into her shield design should be considered.
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My brothers arms, yes, haha, the Serbian shield was a fail on our part. But do you think using the two headed eagle by itself is ok? Or is the roman eagle ok by itself? I could remove the roman eagle’s thunderbolts if that makes it any better too. The bottom charges running off the page i thought looked cool… but… my brother generally disagreed so i suppose when i do it over i wont do that again… XD
What exactly are you trying to symbolize in this quarter. It seems going from the Serbian arms to Roman eagle to.. whatever.. doesn’t speak to the reason for the charge (or quarter) itself. "That looks cool" is fine, but arms are a personal identification and LOTS of charges "look cool" - why take a specific type of eagle?... again, "what" are you doing or trying to accomplish with this?
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My sisters, well when she first heard about the lozenge she was also enraged… but then… she thought about and she was all "no, you know what, its unique, I like that its unique, and lozenge is a cool word, I like that. I think I will use the lozenge! I like that the female’s is different!"—- she became oddly attached to it haha. And i told her from the beginning "It’s only tradition, but there is no rule saying you cant use the cooler shield" ... she likes underdogs, maybe she sees the lozenge as the underdog? idk haha.
She is welcome to display her arms as she sees fit. As long as she is aware that she is assenting to a tradition of sexism (yeah, I’m consistent at least)
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Now for all the background stuff I think I will just leave it as artistic embellishment. Except for two things… if you could explain how I would write in a blazon to use a brown cloak and hood rather than a tattered mantle, I would like to do so. But if there just isn’t a way, I can leave it out, and if some other artist chooses to do it with a regular mantle i wont whine about it.
After seeing the artwork, you really aren’t using the cloak as a mantle in that it is not connected to the top of the helm via a torse (or belt). Someone will correct me, but I don’t see why one couldn’t say: In lieu of a mantle, a cloak… etc.. Someone here may have more ideas on that.
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But then, there is my sisters crest. Yes, the star was meant to be a crest, and its essential to the whole thing. You see, the Rose Charge is Love, the cross ordinary is Faith, and the Star crest was meant to be hope. And all three of these elements are working together as a visual pun with her motto which is "but the greatest of these is love"—-also yes, I told her many times that if anyone else were to draw it the rose would look like a usual heraldic rose. And she said "I dont care, I think the heraldic rose looks dumb, when you draw it for me, design a better one."—- so i did. If there is any way at all to blazon that specific rose i would but I don’t believe there is. She will have to suck it up. But as far as my artistic rendering goes, this is the rose she wants.
See my first comment above and some others in the thread (i.e. a garden rose)
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As for my charge. Well, I’m not too worried about the moon and wolf being of similar color as I did intend the two to work together as a single unified charge. I was thinking of blazoning it as this "a wolf head erased, dexter facing, on top a crescent, dexter facing, both colored proper"—- I think that is the best way to do it. I know another artist will not perfectly render the charge the exact same way as I have done. But the essential image, of a wolf’s head atop a crescent moon, will be there. And for the purpose of heraldry, I think that will do. What does everyone think?
I think your charge is a logo, not heraldry. (kind of harsh, but.. honest). Heraldry is an art form with some restrictions by custom and tradition.. It’s about both blazon and emblazon. If one cannot blazon it in more or less traditional methods, it just is not heraldry. It falls outside the framework of heraldry. Now, if one could say… "a wolf’s head erased proper conjoined with the lower half of a crescent point to dexter Argent"... and a rendition of that by another artist would be just as welcome as your specific charge style.. then, perhaps…
As to the family thing - here’s a graphic I made once and loaded on my car display. The quality of the snapshot is poor, but you get the idea. which may help.
http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1393&stc=1&d=1420978866
Ditto Kathy, including her reluctant "well, maybe, I guess" responses on several points that she was almost audibly choking on
You might consider either deleting the crescent, or making it larger & thinner so it surrounds 3/4 of the wolf’s head but neither surmounts or is obscured by the other; then if you wish, use your current combined charge as a badge.
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hi everyone! sorry I havn’t had a chance to respond lately.
Kathy your suggestions are very helpful. haha
My sisters crest. I did not know it was supposed to be on a torse. I shall put it on one. I had already suggested the cartouche to her when I first told her all the options she had. she didn’t like that one. She really is quite attracted to the lozenge. I don’t know if I would call it a tradition of sexism simply to say that women traditionally used something that made them different from the men. But whatever. It’s not relevant. She wishes to have the lozenge.
My brothers. What he is trying to portray is a) his heritage. Serbia and Italy, and b) his college major and future profession—engineer. And then that star is just a personal symbol he made up. the whole "having the lower two charges run off the side" was just me thinking i was being artistically clever. Forget that haha. The reason he chose the two eagles is because they symbolize Serbia and Italy. But again, clearly neither of us were thinking when we slapped the actual Serbian arms on there. And i’m sure that eagle with the thunderbolts is pushing it too. But would the two headed silver eagle WITHOUT all the other stuff. and the one headed golden eagle WITHOUT the thunderbolts be sufficient to symbolize the heritage without pretending to be royalty?
Thankyou so much for the suggestion of how to say that I want a cloak and not a mantle!
Ok so… I’m not including the swords, arrows, or… my sister’s odd wings haha, in the blazons. They are for artistic show. I am dropping the crest, my sister is not and it’s getting a torse. My brother will either drop his crest or change it, I need to ask him. My sister wants the lozenge (sorry if some people find it oddly sexist, but that’s what she wants and its not breaking any rules). My charge seems to have a proper blazon unless someone thinks the one suggested is horribly wrong. I think its great! i know how to say i want a cloak and not a torse and mantle, which is fine apparently unless someone objects. I still need to find out what to do about my brother’s eagles though.
OH! and should i blazon the rose as a "garden rose" i think somebody suggested that in a previous post. Does that sound correct to everyone? should I mention the number of petals and sepals it has?
"Garden rose" with a specified color should be sufficient -no need or reason to specify number of petals etc., just leave that to the artist. All that is important is that it have lots of petals, like almost any modern garden rose.
That is enough to make it visually quite different from the usual "heraldic" rose , which is a stylized representation of a five-petal wild rose; or the ten petals (five red, five white) of the stylized English "Tudor" rose. Neither of these would be appropriate. A single heraldic rose at the center of the shield would look like an English cadency mark for a younger son - I don’t recall off hand if 4th or 5th son - which your sister clearly isn’t and a Tudor rose would suggest some historical English connection. The garden rose carries neither of those connotations, and IMO is quite attractive.
As for the lozenge, that’s purely optional on your sister’s part. Heraldically, at least in American practice the shape of the shield is just an artistic choice, not a fixed part of the heraldic design. Your sister can switch back and forth between any number of shield shapes as often as she may wish, or stick with one shape forever, and they will still be the same arms pertaining to the same person.
