Symbolic meanings of the sun

 
Nicolas Vernot
 
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Nicolas Vernot
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28 June 2006 16:50
 

In a previous post about Hugh Brady’s CoA, I made an allusion about the sun being a symbol for justice. I thought it would be more appropriate to open a new thread about sun symbolism (though I did not really now where to open it).

I would just like to share how I discovered this meaning. I have to say that I never read anything about this aspect of sun symbolism in any books I read about heraldry. I am usually very suspicious about the so-called "heraldic symbolism" because you can make the charges tell what you want them to tell.

So here is my story. I was putting to an end an article about civic heraldry in the county of Burgundy during the Renaissance, and realized that nobody knew the explanation for the sun which was taking place in the CoA of the former capital city, Dole, since XVth century. I noticed that the motto was "Justitia et Armis". I has previously quoted the XVIIth engraved CoA of a parish priest with a sun and the motto : "Sol justitiae Christus" (Christ sun of justice), and found then that another french city had a sun in his CoA, with the same motto !

It could not be a coincidence, and I found that "Sun of Justice" was an expression to be found in the Old Testament (Malachia) which had been interpretated as a prophecy alluding to the Messiah.

The city of Dole was where you could find the university (famous in XVth century for Law) and, above all, the province Parliament. So I was able to conclude that the sun was, in this context, an allusion to the justice given, edicted and taught in Dole.

 

Of course, it does not mean that it is true everywhere in everyplace, but this meaning seems quite popular in Renaissance continental Europe.

 

Nicolas

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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28 June 2006 17:09
 

Nicolas:

Thanks for posting this. I had been wondering about this since you raised it yesterday. I’d be curious to see the article on renaissance civic heraldry, but I assume it’s in French, and alas, mine is still very much in the schoolboy stage.

 

Best,

 

Hugh

 
Nicolas Vernot
 
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Nicolas Vernot
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28 June 2006 17:57
 

True, it is in french and is to be published in the proceedings of a symposium. But I will be glad to answer your questions about the subject, if I can. As far as the sun is concerned, there are other possible meanings.

By the way, do you know the origins of Brady’s sun ?

 

Nicolas

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 June 2006 18:24
 

According to both Dr. MacLysaght and Mr. O Comain, as well as others, the Ui Brioin Breifne tribe of the Connachta were very devoted to the worship of the sun. This is likely where the Brady sun comes from, for the ancient Irish, and even the Scottish, totemic symbols of their pagan days carried over into the Christianization of the people. Later a Christian reference was attempted (note the motto of the last recognized chief below), but in reality the symbolism of the sun predates the first Christian missionaries to Ireland and her conversion to that belief system.

Of course the original arms are: Sable, in the sinister base a dexter hand couped at the wrist Proper, pointing to a sun in splendor in the dexter chief Or. And the original crest is: Out of a ducal coronet Or, a cherub Proper, the wings Or. And the motto associated with the last chief is: Claritate dextra (The right hand is clear).

 

I hope that helps Nicolas.

 

edited by member for length

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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28 June 2006 18:48
 

I think Dennis did a good job of setting out the generally accepted origin of the coat. The latin professor I consulted with on the motto informs me that the motto is best translated as "with a bright light to the right" rather than "the right hand is clear."

In my research, the original MacBradys only bore a shield without the crest or a motto, the latter being added after one of our number was enobled on the Continent. Some believe the addition reflects the traditional crest and motto used by the sept, while others believe they were created especially for the enobled Brady and just cross-migrated back over to become established. I don’t think we’ll ever really know, but I hold with the latter view for two reasons: first, Latin mottoes, at least in my research, are rare for Irish arms; and, second, the cherub (again, at least in my research) is likewise rare in the heraldry of the British Isles.

 

Of course, if there is evidence to the contrary, I’d love to hear it.

 

Best,

 

Hugh

 
J Duncan of Sketraw
 
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J Duncan of Sketraw
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28 June 2006 18:52
 

Dennis the Sun could also represent their pagan, pre-christian Celtic past.

As in many parts of the UK (especially Southern England) the sun in splendor is synonymous with paganism. As Nicholas suggests the Sun indeed has various meanings especially from country to country.

 

I think my leaning would be to that of justice, as this has often been the explanation for its use…..how it relates to justice however I don’t know, interesting!

 
Nicolas Vernot
 
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Nicolas Vernot
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28 June 2006 19:08
 

Thank you Donnchadh for your explanations. Like Hugh, I would tend to think that the shield is older than the motto. The great period for creating mottoes was the XVIth century (there are some instances of older ones, but only for the greatest princes and families). It reflects Renaissance taste for latin comments on pictures (see imprese, books of devices, etc.).

What I can say from what I saw in french heraldry is that mottos are very fashionable among aristocracy circa XVI-XVII century.

Brady arms makes me think of a funny example of french canting arms. In 1696, king Louis XIV issued an edict ordering every CoA used in France to be registered for a fee. Many people were compelled to pay the tax, because they were supposed to have a CoA, even if they had not. A priest from a place called Montreuil paid the tax, but did not give any blazon, so the administration created one for him: it was a hand showing an eye. Why ? It was a pun, using the name of the place Montreuil : the hand "montre-oeil" (shows-eye).

If you take Brady arms, you see "bras dit" ("the arm says")... wink

Nicolas

 
Donnchadh
 
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29 June 2006 00:56
 

Hugh (Aeodh) & Nicolas, it very well could be that it came about on the continent – most likely in France or Spain, as those two kingdoms were havens for the droves of Irishmen. I can’t say if it was Dr. MacLysaght, or O Comain, but one of them talked about the last known chief using the crest and motto. Of course many Irish families lost their chiefs to overseas kingdoms during our suppression and it is very possible, I dare say likely, that their source for this was for the last known chief who died without issue in one of those overseas kingdoms.

In fact MacLysaght remarks on many Irish chiefs who died in the 18th through the 19th centuries in Continental Europe. He even went further by mentioning many citizens of those nations who in fact he would consider to be eligible for chiefship; all they had to do was apply for it. Alas, the republic has done away with our chiefs in a final blow in an over reaction to the falsity of Terrance “I wanna be MacCarthy Mor” McCartney formerly of Belfast and now of Morocco.

 

So, were I a Brady I would have no problem using that crest as it was the one used by my last chief regardless of where he lived and died. But, that’s me and while I don’t put much stalk in other things of nobility per se, I am a freak for Irish clans, their legitimate chiefs, as well as the pretenders.

 

As for the Latin of the motto, I would agree with Hugh in relation to native Irish. However, there are cases of Cambro-Norman Irish who did use Latin. Of course I can’t say for certain how many adopted their motto after the Tudor and Stewart suppression of all things Irish and Catholic. In fact it may be most of these Norman-Irish families adopted them then. Certainly when many of the native Irish submitted to the “Surrender and Re-grant” policies of the Tudors and Stewarts they were given arms and it may be that a good number of these included Latin mottos along with their English, or Anglicized, names.

 

John, I’m sorry. I was saying that it was a pagan symbol for the MacBradys. It carried over from pagan times when this part of the Connachta did practice sun worship, as many Irish and Scottish totemic symbols did carry over. Sorry I was unclear – my bad.

 
J Duncan of Sketraw
 
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J Duncan of Sketraw
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29 June 2006 03:27
 

It Wasn’t you Dennis, perhaps I should take more note of things when I read…dumb!

 
Nicolas Vernot
 
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29 June 2006 18:26
 

As far as the origin of Brady arms are concerned, the best is to go back to old seals and carved stones, always better sources than second-hands comments !

Nicolas

 
Donnchadh
 
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29 June 2006 20:50
 

Quote:

As far as the origin of Brady arms are concerned, the best is to go back to old seals and carved stones, always better sources than second-hands comments !


I’m not sure what you mean Nicolas? The MacBrady/Brady arms are already on record with the CHoI, as they were inherited from Ulster King of Arms when that office was dissolved and the contents passed to the Irish Free State, which later became the Republic of Ireland, under the protection and authority of the National Library in Dublin, to which the CHoI is a part of.

 

According to Dr. MacLysaght, the first Chief Herald of Ireland after the departure of Ulster’s office, the MacBrady/Brady arms were as mentioned above, namely: Sable, in the sinister base a dexter hand couped at the wrist Proper, pointing to a sun in splendor in the dexter chief Or. Dr. MacLysaght used the records at his disposal when he wrote on the more popular arms of Ireland in his ‘Irish Families’ book. So, that is the earliest recorded arms of MacBrady/Brady.

 

So, I’m totally lost as to what you mean? Sorry…

 

Unless you mean the crest, which Hugh pointed out he found used later.

 

So, for arms that may have been ‘crestless’ during the previous centuries in Ireland one can reasonably assume that upon the recognitions and granting of Irish Arms by Ulster they would usually include a crest and a motto. However, as Hugh pointed out, the chiefs (some of whom were Irish Peers and definitely Irish “Rí” to one degree or another) who fled to Europe may have obtained crests and mottos there.

 

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Nicolas Vernot
 
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Nicolas Vernot
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30 June 2006 04:30
 

Donnchadh (and certainly other people), sorry if I am sometimes unclear : it is not always easy to express an idea in a foreign language, espacially dealing with specialized matters.

So here is what I meant :

From what I can read, I can see a different cultural approach about the value of heraldic sources. In France, CoA state records are not so many. Most of the CoA have always been assumed. The most complete heraldic state record is the Armorial général of 1696, which recorded more than 120 000 arms. Though a state record, it does not avoid mistakes.

So in France, when you want to know the origins of a CoA, it is far better to look for the original sources as they were used by the owner (seals, carved stones…).

When you do that very work (as Joe did in his presidential series), you notice that sometimes so-called "recorded arms" are only the last stage of a long-during evolution. Charges may appear, disappear, or remain. Colors may change… Sometimes, CoA are recorded centuries after they appeared ! More : sometimes heralds wanted to impose changes or "corrections".

So believe me. Even if state records are useful and most of the time reliable sources, the best way to know the history of a CoA is to check/compare the data with the practical use of the considered CoA by its owner.

Nicolas

 
focusoninfinity
 
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focusoninfinity
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16 December 2006 21:12
 

In the theoretical, if not "real" (does anyone have evidence such a ceremony was actually performed, even once?) "creation" service of a Landgrave or Cassique of 1600/1700’s colonial, low country South Carolina; mention is made of creation robes, "The Sun In All It’s Glory", motto "Vidit Que Deus Hanc Lucem Esse Bonam" (my guess: "He Who Sees God, Knows this Light is Good" ?), and a "jewel".  My guess is the "jewel" is the sun symbol hanging from the ribbon placed arounded the new Landgrave’s or Cassique’s neck? I’ve never read of a Landgravine being "created", so by implication, all Landgravine’s title and baronies were inherited? I’ve never heard of a female Cassique, nor term for one. Seemingly; a male who inherited the barony and title, did not have a "creation" ceremomy? As perhaps half the South Carolina Landgraves and Cassiques never made it to South Carolina shores; where was the creation ceremony performed; if it ever was actually performed?  I forget who, but one person was sent to South Carolina with (presigned?) blank forms; as the back-and-forth across the Atlantic method, took too much time. The King created one Landgrave; the Lords Proprietors seemingly created all the rest (not inherited). As likely most of these South Carolina barons (in S.C. or remaining in England), all ready were entitled to personal CoAs; after they were created South Carolina nobles, could and did they, add something to their personal existing CoA’s, to show this new status distinction?