Hello!

I was wondering if anyone with a knowledge of Middle Eastern heraldry could help me with the designing of an armorial achievment for myself? i.e Mr. Kelisli and Mr. Arman or anyone else with this area of expertise?

I am of Turkish and Egyptian heraldry, am descended in the Paternal line from a Turkish bey, and from the Maternal line to the descendants of the Prophet (PBUH) directly. I know that those thus descended were entitled to wear either a green or black turban, so would a beylical kavuk like in Mr. Kelisli’s family arms, but with a green turban work as a crest? As for charges on a preferably round shield I was wondering if something with crescents and stars in threes somehow (Mr. Kelisli should know what I am referring too:) And could I have supporters as banners or flags similar to the Khedival Egyptian or Imperial Ottoman arms? No orders or decorations, I’m afraid, heh. Also about mantles, such as in Mr. Kelisli’s arms.

Sorry if I seem to be mooching off your arms, but honestly, I used to think I was prolly the only Egyptian interested in this stuff. And since it may be impossible to have these as my personal arms, I was wondering if I could have them as family arms?

Any information and “re-direction” would be extremely helpful, as well as anyone willing to actually draw them out. Since I had coats of arms previously designed, but they look like, no offense, “clip art”.

Thanks

I could help you design a coat of arms, but I can’t say I have an expertise in Egyptian heraldry.

I would for certain PM both Hassan and Arman.

MohamedHossam wrote:

...but with a green turban work as a crest? As for charges on a preferably round shield I was wondering if something with crescents and stars in threes somehow (Mr. Kelisli should know what I am referring too:) And could I have supporters as banners or flags similar to the Khedival Egyptian or Imperial Ottoman arms?

Thanks

this only touches on two of the less important parts of your question, but it is a start… As far as the turban goes I see no reason why you couldn’t use it like a crown with some other crest issuant (or on top of?)... like many European arms do, for example Mr. Bissonnette.

As too supporters, my impression is that one generally has to earn them… I’m not sure how it works in middle eastern heraldry but in the US it is considered in bad taste to give yourself supporters, unless you’ve inherited them from a granting authority…

Hope that helps some…

What about :

Vert, on a fess Argent between 3 cresents sinister of the second 3 mullets of 8 (or just 5) Gulles

(The mullet of 8 is in refernece to the original staff in the Egyption Heraldry thread. Also by Cresent sinister I mean a cresent with it’s points facing sinister, i.e the direction in that egyption thread. And on a circular shield, of course)

Or maybe:

Tierced in Pairle Gules, Vert, And Argent. In the first a Persian Lion* of the third. In second and third in fess 3 mullet in cresent counterchanges.

*By "Persion Lion" I mean the lion in Arman Kamran’s (without the sun). However I say this not knowing whether the Lion is a symbol of the Qajar Royalty or if the Lion on Sun is the symbol. If it is inaproppriate I aight choose something else. So:

Tierced in Pairle Gules, Vert, And Argent. In the first *under a sun of 10 points of the third 2 scimitars in saltire. In second and third in fess 3 mullet in cresents counterchanged.

Ok, how about if I have a design in mind and someone can show me what it might look like, because I thought maybe something along the lines of:

Vert, three crescents sinister with three mullets of five, argent. All on a round shield bordered in gold with a medallion of the Ottoman Order of the Crescent signifying my great grandfather’s status as a Bey of the Ottoman Empire (this would be a gold sunburst with a central circle in red depicting a white crescent and star). As for a crest, some sort of eastern looking crown/toque with something green, like a charge or plume, or possibly an actual crown but lined with green? Though maybe the crown might be a tad pretensious (to say the least;))

So what do you all think of that idea? I can make a rough design in Ms Paint to show you what I sorta mean if anyone is interested. Of course you also have the possibility of emailing me

Ok, I have a design, but can someone please inform me as to how to attach images. and are .bmp’s acceptable, or must it be in .jpg, .gif as in a few other forums??

But be warned, my skills in graphics are uh, *cough*cough* lacking….at best…

http://www.arikah.com/encyclopedia/images/4/4d/Thraceottoman.JPG Something vaguely like that would work for the crest, tho not as high and without those chains or pearls or whatever,

Mohamed, you can attach an image by going to a place like image shack or photo bucket and uploading it to their site to host it and then using the function here. That’s how I post my images here.

As to your arms, you are technically free to do as you choose, but there are certain things that people generally avoid as a matter of taste. Supporters are one of them (and ironically I am one of the minority that thinks American’s should use supporters if they want to, but that’s a discussion for a different day…).

The turban (sorry if that’s the wrong word) idea is a good one I think. As mentioned above, I don’t see why you couldn’t use it.

The crescents and stars are a good choice (the one Muslim fella I did arms for was from Algeria and he also wanted crescents and stars). Just be sure to try and make them as unique - or in as unique a combination - as possible. This way it is unique to you and no one can claim you’re ripping them off from something/someone else.

Are there other symbols that say "Egyptian" when looking at them? Can they be used heraldically (no religious/political/cultural barrier)? If so why not a combination of one of those and the crescents?

Thanks Donnchadh! here is my extremely rough sketch, wondering if anyone can clean up and digitize it perhaps? I’ll be glad to link the sites from which I got the original clipart if anyone so wishes

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9220/armafw4.png

Did you want 1 cresent and star or 3?

To be honest you will probably want to avoid this style mantling. This matling is only given to Royalty, and since the USA has no royalty I would suggest avoiding it completely.

Here’s the basic shield in 3 different designs, yours and the two i suggested

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/517faa3177.png http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/64d508076f.png    http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/763a654a7b.png

Wow, very nice. especially like the central one, but wouldn’t it look a tad better if the crescents were 1 + 2 instead? I like the stars, would just one star in the middle be ok, or would that somehow make it seem, I dunno how to say it, "middle heavy"? As if it had a column of charges in the middle, ya know.  Hmm, what about another combination of crescents and stars, such as: Vert, three crescent-and-star ‘s argent. But arranged in a triangular formation like 1 + 2??? And as to the gold border, I actually meant gold decoration around the shield, not on the actual field, but thanks anyway!

Sorry if I’m coming out as too critical, I really appreciate your hard work. So what do you think of my suggestions? A visual depiction would be nice

Thanks in either case for your work

Not too critical at all.. this is how it goes. You put something out there, look at it and change it as you see fit.

Here’s what you mentioned:

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/22d141d606.png http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/24e434677b.png

With the first one i would be worried that you would be replicating someone elses arms. It seems to me that the cresent and star is the most common symbol in middle eastern heraldry, and this pattern is also very common.

Linusboarder wrote:

...Here’s what you mentioned:

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/24e434677b.png

Colin,

Actually, Mohamed said 1 & 2, which balances much nicer when using a fess:

MohamedHossam wrote:

...but wouldn’t it look a tad better if the crescents were 1 + 2 instead?

[2&1 is great with a chevron, especially when the 1 is a bit larger than the 2]

By the way—you’re doing a great job with the emblazons.  I’m enjoying watching the progression of Mohamed’s Arms.

—Guy

You’re right, i’ll fix that when I get home from work tonight….

and thanks for the compliment

Thanks for the effort Linus! I think I may have saved you some trouble:

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/2b31921866.bmp

The First one is the one you designed but with the order of crescents changed. the second one is the same, sans star. The third one is your design but with the star changed to vert, instead of gules.  Personally I’m leaning towards the one with the mullet of five points vert, so that the color scheme will be simpler and my livery colors would only be two instead of three. But the basic design is the one you drew, which is very nice.

I too like the third one, with the vert star.