OK. jonathan has some questions on the use of supporters. instead of ruining his current thread on his arms i figure we ought to move it to here.
so, feel free to post why you say nay, as most of you think, and i will post why we could say yes, as some of us think.
for my part i think that as supporters originated as a decorative expression by the trade’s craftsmen and since only after that did the nobility/royalty appropriate it for themselves and that as we as Americans do not live in such a society that we are not bound by the conventions of foreign nobles and/or monarchs and that in light of its origins we should be able to display them as we see fit especially given that non-corporeal entities are oft to use them and we have no problems with that whatsoever.
and to preempt the inevitable "it is the same as crowns/coronets of rank" argument i remind everyone that there is a difference in that those were symbols originally designed to denote authority be it noble or royal unlike supporters and therein lies the difference.
and for the record, i do not use them, but i do support their use by American armigers as they see fit for the reasons i lay out above. further i reject the "snicker test" as i don’t really care one iota about what others think ... frankly. i’m a take it or leave kind of guy.
OK jonathan be prepared for lots of info ... and high spirited debate(s)
*** Insert very very very dead horse here ***
Well, let me throw in my 2 cents.
Since America, and many other countries that have no heraldic authority, such as my country of Egypt, have no rules limiting or describing supporters, and since I see them as purely an ornament (I read that the Collegium Heraldica Russiae charges extra for supporters) I see nothing wrong with using them.
And to add to my outrageously unheraldic and possible pretensious armorial preferences, Americans or others not bound by a heraldic authority should also be free to use mantles (the draped red or livery color ones with the fringes and tassles).
I have seen some bookplates of non royal (and possibly non-noble) British armigers who have their shield of arms surrounded by sch an ermine lined mantle. Tho they don’t have a crown/coronet, the mantle is sorta draped "over itself" at top like it was on some unseen curtain rod. Though personally, I would encourage the use of your crest in place of the coronet.
Hmm, I wonder what my arms would look like, that way. My shield of arms placed on an ermine lined mantle, with my Mameluke helm atop…(starts working on a little something using paint:wookie:)
also, I seem to recall reading that those of us descended from nobles of the Ottoman Empire can use the coronet of an untitled noble, like Hassan has done, if u look in his various emblazonments. If that is the case, I would looove to have my arms done like this example:
About crowns and such - aye, those are traditional symbols of royalty and as such I’ve no claim on such things. The same thing goes for ermine and purple.
It’s not like I’m 100% certain that I must have supporters, rather I’ve seen them in other arms and they look nice.
As I have said on another thread, heraldry is new to me. So you guys in the know keep beating this dead horse. It’s got a lot of life left in it for us Newbies.
Seeing both sides of the debate ( a debate I didn’t know existed) is instructive.
Are there other debates we Newbies should know about, other debates that will help us shape our philosophies about heraldry in general and heraldic design in particular?
hmm…maybe just..should mantling show from both sides? 
As noted, this horse has been rode hard & put away wet more than once. It would be worthwhile (& save a lot of repetitive bandwidth) to search the forum for earlier debates. Various readers have posted differing positions based on a variety of considerations. For me, its simply a matter of avoiding misleading visual statements about who & what I am.
Whatever heraldry is or may be in other parts of the world, here its primarily for visual identification, family solidarity, and artistic expression; limited (IMO anyway) to the context of small-"r" republican values.
In the English-speaking world (& likely some others, but I’ll stick to the relevant context), the Brits no longer set the rules or call the shots for us here. However, they are the soil from which our own traditions originally grew, legally, politically and heraldically; and the common language has fostered that connection. That’s as true in heraldry as in law or politics.
The sheer weight of history and the fact that, for better or worse, most Americans (even those relatively few with a good knowledge of heraldry) are primarily conversant in the British traditions, leads me to the conclusion that if I ape the British peers "just because I can" I must also assume that most other Americans will see and interpret my heraldic display in the British context—i.e. that I am making a visual display similar to that of a foreign peer or noble. Therefore the display of American arms with supporters will suggest either that I think I’m somehow more noble than the rest (i.e,. I’m a snob), or that I want others to think so (i.e. I’m a pretentious social climber), or that I somehow don’t think "Joe Citizen" is really good enough (i.e. I’m really somewhat ashamed of being "only" an American).
"Snicker test" aside—for that’s only a more polite way of saying it—any one of those possibilities I find offensive to my "republican" sensibilities and, ultimately, harmful to the future of heraldry in America. If heraldry is seen to be the plaything of snobs, social climbers, or Anglophiles (or any other foreign-o-phile), it won’t receive—or deserve—the tolerance or respect of most Americans. That’s been the case at least since 1776 (or for most American families nowadays, whenever you or your immigrant ancestor took the oath to become a citizen). Our heraldic display should not visually contradict the substance or spirit of that oath and the American values it asks us to embrace.
Sorry to be grumpier than usual. I hope to be more civil in the new year. Honest!
I would like to clarify something. In Egypt there was no heraldic authority, but the Khedive (and since 1922 the King) was the fount of honor and did grant arms, titles, and ranks. While the tradition did not last long, nonetheless in did exist.
As for the use of the untitled noble’s coronet, it followed the same rules in continental Europe, which is that descendants of Ottoman and Egyptian nobles (in the male line) were entitled to display the coronet above their shield. Modern Egyptian heraldry adopted aspect of Italian, French and Germanic heraldry.
As for the mantle, only royalty, higher nobility and ancient Beys used it. Modern Beys were lesser than Pashas in terms of order of precedence. Ancient Beys were more like ancient European baronies or chiefdoms.
I hope this clarifies the matter. As for the supporters, mantles, coronets of rank, I tend to believe that less in more. I prefer the simpler arms rather than the more pretenctious ones.
In fact, since I am going to become a US citizen in a few years, I prefer to follow the traditions being formed by this society. This means that in any future renditions of my personal arms, I will drop the coronet of an untitled noble all together.
These are my two cents.
I’m inclined to liken the use of supporters to the fancy, hyperblous, fictional, stolen titles some people use to inflate their C.V. That does nothing for the individual except to make them look foolish in the eyes of others.
Hassan, are there any recorded instances of Kings Fuad or Farouk granting arms? I am not doubting what you say. I mean are there any instances of them specifically granting someone a coat of arms not an honour that can be displayed in or on a coat of arms by someone.
BTW, i got a really interesting book "Farouk was Suqout al Malakia fi Misr" Farouk and the fall of monarchy in egypt. I recommend it!
and on a side note..my great great grandfather Sabri Bey was a bey during the reign of Sultan Abd el Mejid. Would he be counted amongst these beys ancièn? He was turkish from Izmir., or do u mean more like Beys in the reigns when they would actually wear these robes, such as Abd el Hamid I, and everyone before Mahmoud II and his "modernization"
DRShorey wrote:
*** Insert very very very dead horse here ***
[ATTACH]125[/ATTACH]
Is this what you have in mind?
BWA-Hahahahahahaah ....
You shoulda pierced the horses each with one or two arrows a’la Clanranald Macdonald:
http://www.clandonaldchiefs.org.uk/clanranald/ranald450mm.gif
and Glengarry Macdonald:
http://www.clandonaldchiefs.org.uk/glengarry/glengarry450mm.gif
A good "Parthian shot" [aka "parting shot"], those horses of yours!
—Guy
MohamedHossam wrote:
Hassan, are there any recorded instances of Kings Fuad or Farouk granting arms? I am not doubting what you say. I mean are there any instances of them specifically granting someone a coat of arms not an honour that can be displayed in or on a coat of arms by someone.
I am not sure if King Fouad and King Farouk granted arms, but I do know that Khedive Ismail granted arms. I have not been able to look at such grants as they either burned during the fire in the Abdine Palace Archives and/or are locked up with no public access since the Egyptian revolution of 1952.
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BTW, i got a really interesting book "Farouk was Suqout al Malakia fi Misr" Farouk and the fall of monarchy in egypt. I recommend it!
Thank you for the reference. I have it and have read it.
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and on a side note..my great great grandfather Sabri Bey was a bey during the reign of Sultan Abd el Mejid. Would he be counted amongst these beys ancièn? He was turkish from Izmir., or do u mean more like Beys in the reigns when they would actually wear these robes, such as Abd el Hamid I, and everyone before Mahmoud II and his "modernization"
Ancient Beys were the Beys titled up to the reign of Padishah Suleyman the Magnificent. There were multiple reformations since his reign and the rank and title of Bey became equivalent to a continental Viscount and Baron (i.e. lower ranks of nobility).
Wow
Where were you able to find about about the grants by Khedive Ismail? I would be really interested in knowing about it.
OMG…LMAO!
Thanks Michael I needed that laugh. But seriously, can we please try to not waste bandwidth on things that have been debated to death.
Dave
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*** Insert very very very dead horse here *** [... and ...] But seriously, can we please try to not waste bandwidth on things that have been debated to death.
Dave, that may be, however, Jonathan is new and he brought this up in another thread. When I mentioned this was a dead horse when the good Father Guy pulled it all back up from another thread back when he was the VP of our society I was informed by Joe that it was still important to bring up as people are always visiting the site and may not be aware of the issue(s). So, if you don’t like it don’t participate; no one is forcing you to participate in this one. And since when is doing what the DE once said was a good thing for lurkers and Newbies when a then current board member re-posted it as a new thread and began to contribute to it not a waste of bandwidth but only now it is? In truth I could just as easily say that about more than half the things we talk about here with all seriousness. We have a pattern of repeating conversations every couple of months or so and more frequently on the times we are helping newbies with questions on designing their arms. So, why is it wasting bandwidth on this issue when it is not for other things we also repeat ad nauseum? How about when people hijack a thread that was destined for one thing and turned into another? Why not then Dave? That happens far more than bringing up conversations from several months or more ago for newer members when they ask questions. I don’t want to sound like a jerk, but what you posted has come off as rather snobbish (especially since you did not follow it from the other thread from a Newbie trying to decide what he should or should not do) and I’ve never seen you like that … you are a quality/stand up guy, so if I’ve misunderstood you I apologize for bringing this up and call myself a jerk (which I’m not calling you at all), but why is it waste for one and not another? Personally, when I truly don’t like a topic then I ignore it and move on to something else.
Trent, that is exactly why I posted it here for the newbies, especially Jonathan, who was wondering aloud about them. And since our director of education once advised me when I complained about it being a dead horse when the then VP brought it back up that is was worthwhile, I say so now with no qualms whatsoever. It is good for the newbies, as well as the lurkers, who are curious about topics and have not found it yet.
Mohamed, I also see them as purely an artistic ornament, for that is what they once were and that is all they would be in a nation that is a federal republic. Anyone reading more into them is blinded by their own prejudices good or bad, which in truth we all are on every single issue … some of us just recognize that whilst others do not. As for the mantles, I’m not so sure I can go with that one either, as that one IIRC is a representation of the robe of estate, which like a crown is and always was a symbol of power for the nobiliary/royalty of Europe. If I am wrong on that I will amend my thinking on it.
Mike, on the dead horse issue, I refer to above for Newbies and Joe’s comment on the validity of it many months ago when I mentioned it was a dead horse – no one claimed it was a waste of time then instead I was beaten about the brow with the “educational” worthwhileness (is this even a word?) of it all so to speak. As to the soil from which we sprang, I would agree by and large. However, we must boil it down to what of that soil do we reject (the nobility/monarchy/etc) and what do we make our own in light of the fact that we are created by our Creator with inalienable rights – the sort of rights that also give us privileges that only the British nobiliary/monarchy had enjoyed. So, if we are to slice off that part of our British heritage … why not others we find outdated or no longer valid. Now as to the republican sensibilities I would agree with you and that is the reason I do not use them, though I have a rendition of my arms I did create with them to see what they look like (not bad at all really from an artistic standpoint), but obviously do not use. To which I must add after all the debating on this issue no one ever once asked the question ‘if you support the use of supporters for individual Americans, why don’t you have any yourself?’ Instead people assume(d) many, many stupid things … but I say now that you bring it up again that that is the only reason I do not use them, but that reason is not as strong in me as I am sure it is in you, but it is strong enough to prevent me from adopting them for myself.
Hassan, great info. Thank you for sharing. And an early welcome home for when you do become an American. To me there are precious few things that are better than being an American citizen… the air we breathe being one of them.
