Hello Everyone,

I am new to AHS, so new that I am still labeled as a guest, but believe me, I did join.  I have been interested in heraldry for a while.  I actually had started my own website while the AHS site was still in its infancy.  Fortunately for everyone, this site has developed into more than I could have hoped for my own site.  In anycase, one of my projects is to creat an on-line armorial of Colonial and Early American Arms.  I believe in using references.  Accademic research demands references, and in a web environment where misinformation is abundant, I believe even the casual surfer would appreciate them.  My main sources at this time are:

Matthews, John. ed., Matthews American Armory and Blue Book. 1907 New York: Crest Publishing Co., 1962.

Crozier, William Armstrong.  A Registry of American Families Entitled to Coat Armor from the Earliest to the Present Time.  New York:  The Genealogical Association at the Taft and Belknap Galleries, 1904.

Bolton, Charles Knowles.  Bolton’s American Armory:  A Record of Coats of Arms Which Have been in Use Within the present Bounds of the United States.  Baltimore:  Heraldic Book Company, 1964.

The site I had mentioned earlier is closed, and unfortunately because of my own stupidity I have to start anew.  At this time I am wondering If I should start a new site and create a link to the AHS site, or to request, politic, cajole, and arm twist the moderators of AHS to create pages for such an armorial.  Your input is appreciated.

Personally I’d rather have an Armorial be part of the AHS.  My reasons for this are:

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From my experience surfing the web for heraldry information, I have found that there are more sites that provide inaccurate information than there are that provide accurate information.  And many sites are nothing more than scams.  I’d prefer to see a place where the novice can find some one stop shopping for accurate heraldry information.  AHS has already begun this process without my help
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In keeping with my goal of providing accurate information, I’d rather not run a site as a separate "one man show".  An important part of accademia is the peer review process, and everyone at the AHS are the peers.  Not to mention that everyone at the AHS can be contributors as well.
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I must say that I am impressed with the AHS website, and I look forward to collaborating with all of you in the future.

As the AHS education director, I would like to say three things.

1.  A warm welcome to the society; I’m sure the powers that be will process your membership with all deliberate speed.

2.  Thank you for your kind words about the content already on the site.

3.  I would ABSOLUTELY welcome putting this kind of armorial on the site.  I defer to our president/webmaster concerning such things as storage limits that might exist on the server, but one way or the other I believe we should find a way to exploit this initiative.  I totally agree that we should do our best to make the AHS a one-stop-shopping site for information about American heraldry.

I guess it’s not my unilateral call, but you know what my vote is.

Welcome to the site!  I eagerly anticipate reading your messages.  Yes, your suggestion is an excellent one as it would further the educational aims of the society.

Welcome to the AHS! :D

As for the armory, I’d whole-heartedly welcome the project.

BTW, I like the arms in your avatar. Are they yours? Very nice design. Simple, but distinctive.

Take care,

Thank You all for your support.  As for the arms in my avatar:  Technically speaking, I have assumed them, They are based on the arms of my 10th great grandfather Henri Perdue b. 1585 Anjou, France.(Argent a bend gu an overcross patriarchal sable)  I added the cottises because 12 generations of differencing would have left the arms looking sloppy, and because the genealogical evidence was lacking to show in every case the birth order of siblings in various generations.  Also at a later date a man in Ireland with the name Rorke duplicated the arms.  Adding the cottises allowed me to maintain a visual reference to the arms of my ancestor, while at the same time resolving issues of unclear geneaology and duplication by Rorke.

Having said all of that, the genealogical data have become more muddy.  DNA evidence and the genealogical research don’t add up.  Henri Perdue may not be my 10th great grandfather after all.  Now, I guess its best to say that I have assumed the arms.

semi assumed

I understand that it is the holidays and that people are busy, so please do not take me to be impatient.  I have started to accumulate JPEG images of early American arms, mostly from Matthews American Armory and Blue Book.  If the powers that be at AHS let me know when or how to go about posting I am ready to do so.  I can even e-mail them to someone so they can be posted if that is prefered.

I’m not a lawyer, but a few here are.  As much as I would enjoy additional material on-line, I would hate to see the website run into copyright problems.  Having raised the concern, hopefully the lawyers among us will contribute their expertise to keep us "safe."

While I am not a lawyer either, I did do some research on copyright law before I posted the armorial on my own website.  Here is a quick explanation as I understand it:

The armorial will consist of an image of the shield, and some basic index information to clearly identify the armiger, and of course references.  "Roosevelt Theodore b.1858 New York City, NY" (Matthews)(Bolton)

Index information such as lists of names and addresses cannot be copyrighted.  Other information which could be included in the source material may be copyrighted, in this case usually a bio, or a genealogy.  The Armorial will contain none of that extra information.  If a reader wants more information they myst consult the references, in this case Matthews’ American Armory and Blue Book or Bolton’s American Armory.

As for the images:

Specific images or renditions of Arms can be copyrighted.  However, for heraldry purposes, neither American armiger nor publishing company can copyright every rendition of a coat of arms.  Allow me to use a silly example…the mythical creature the man-mouse.  Mickey mouse and Mighty Mouse are each specific renditions of the man-mouse.  They are each subject to copyright protection under American Copy right law, but in heraldic terms either will satisfy the blazon man mouse rampant.  Even without specific clothes or coloring, one artists man-mouse may be drawn with more flare and style than another artists man-mouse.

The images I create are all drawn using royalty free clip-art from Corel.  In some cases I will scan a charge from a book, and use that charge as part of a larger image.  This is allowed under copyright law.  By virtue of the fact that no scanned charge is ever ready to be used in a coat of arms, each scanned charge is subject to significant modification before used in my own rendition of the arms.

Finally, there is the issue of "Educational Purposes"  It is my understanding that copyright protection cannot be enforced if the source is used purely for "Educational Purposes."  This topic seems a little less clear.  My wife, a teacher, tells me that teachers are not allowed to record a program from the History Channel and show it in class, because of copyright concerns.

If there any lawyers that choose to make corrections, please do.

Well, here in California at least the teachers can and do do that. My US history teacher often shows us programs from the history channel in class, as the actual programs cost like $24.99 and public school funding being what it is! :rolleyes:

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Here is an example of how an entry would look in the armorial.

As for the style of the roses…I am not completely clear on the blason of roses full bloom proper.  Does proper refer to color Rose=Red? or style…Heraldic vs. Realistic?

Still, I thought it would serve as a good example of what I intend to display.  Also, it serves as an example of arms that are identical in blason to arms displayed elsewhere on this website, but do not violate copyright protection.

If you are a Roosevelt descendant, one branch of the Roosevelts via marriage, descend from one of the South Carolina Landgraves; possibly Landgrave Bellinger? Jim, Southport

Proper generally refers to the tinctures; in this case, presumably, roses gules, seeded or, barbed, slipped and leaved vert.

David

While using only printed sources may be a little more reliable than web sources for the use of arms, Mathews, Bolton and Crozier are known to contain a fair number of errors, so don’t expect that just because it’s in print that it is more accurate than a webbed source.

Other books that you may wish to look for as sources are:

Crozier’s "Virginia Heraldica"

and

"A Roll of the Arms Used in the English Colony of Rhode Island in New England, 1636-1776"

I do _not_ recommend using the descriptions of the arms found in the 18th Century Gore roll from Boston which were published in 1865 and reprinted in Vermont’s "America Heraldica" and Whitmore’s "The Elements of Heraldry", as his blazons were taken from an inaccurate copy of the roll and contain a large number of errors.  A much more accurate review of the original roll was published in the 1930’s by Dr. Harold Bowditch in the Journal of the Rhode Island Historic Society and republished in "Rhode Island Genealogies from Rhode Island Periodicals" and more recently in "The Gore Roll" ([url=http://www.appletonstudios.com/herald7.htm]http://www.appletonstudios.com/herald7.htm)[/url].  (This last contains Whitmore’s original publication as well as newer research, along with line drawings of the arms appearing in the roll.)

David

Mr. Appleton,

Thank you very much for the additional information on specific references.  I had not yet come across the Bowditch source or A Roll of Arms used in the English Colony of Rhode Island in New England 1636-1776.  I certainly appeciate help.

I did noticed discrepencies between various sources, but I don’t expect that I will recognize all of the errors.  I’m sure there will never be any perfect reference.  That is why I feel it is important to cite references.  If there are errors, I am sure they will be discussed on this board.  That is my hope anyway.  I would really like this to develop into a PEER REVIEWED ARMORIAL.  With many people contributing, and reviewing, ultimately building an armorial that is large and pretty darned accurate.

Here are a few Arms for starters.

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Reference:

Matthews, John ed. Matthews’ American Armory and Blue Book.  1907. New York:  Crest Publishing Company, 1962.