Hey everyone!
I have been doing a little research. Now we all know that pure Egyptian culture is seperate from Arabic culture. We have our own "stuff" so to speak. I was also thinking about some of the Pharonic motifs that were used in displays of the Royal and Khedivial Arms, pre 1952. There motifs were also used on banknotes, stamps, orders, etc. Now I thought how we could combine these into heraldry.
The case I had in mind was heiroglyphics. Now of course, I’m not changing my arms, (I am happy with mine), but this talk of badges got me thinking. Hieroglyphics would make almost perfect charges for heraldry. Look at the wealth of symbolism: Here are some images from "Gardiner’s Sign List", compiled by an Egyptologist, and showing almost all the known symbols used in Pharonic hieroglyphics. Wouldn’t most of these translate very nicely into heraldry:
I think that if combined with ordinaries, or partitions of the field, some of these could make very striking designs. Now, how would one blazon these?
What do you all think of the idea in general? I was personally imagining these on round shields, rather than the more obvious "cartouche" in which pharaohs’ names were depicted. I also think some sort of twisted rope (a common hieroglyphic symbol, as well as a common decorative motif) could be used for a torse. Some of the Pharonic headgear is very well suited to display above a shield, such as military helms, which had a very round shape.
Regards,
As far as blazoning is concerned, from my limited education so far, you can specify the charge(s) if needed. Such as "Falcon of Rah Or" (I think the symbol for Rah was a falcon). But others more versed will be able to advise you better.
As for a badge, I believe it was very common in England to have knotted rope as a badge (Duke of Buckingham comes to mind).
I think I might get a few emblazoning together, just to see how it looks. I actually downloaded a hieroglyphic font, which will come in very handy now!
Do you actually believe that modern day Muslim Egyptians would use hieroglyphs as charges in personal heraldry? The originators of this writing system were after all idolaters.
This brings up a related question that I have been wanting to ask for many years. Is European heraldry that uses living things as charges offensive to Muslims? For example, do pedestrians passing in front of the British Embassy in Cairo see the Royal Arms think to themselves graven image or do they see the arms simply as a symbol of the UK? If I lived in a Muslim country and flew a heraldic banner (with its barnyard full of creatures) over my house would my neighbors find it offensive?
I see no reason why we would object to the use of it. I didn’t include any images of ancient Egyptian gods and godesses! Though come to think of it, they would make great supporters…....
As to it being created by idolators, so were the pyramids, but we haven’t torn them down, have we?
In regards to the British arms, well, we recognize that
1) They are the arms of a non-Muslim nation, so different rules apply. As a Muslim, I don’t eat pork. But say here, in America, I see a guy having a cheesburger with bacon from Carls Jr. I’m not gonna go yank it out of his hand, am I?
2) They are a coat of arms. So they are symbols. The images that are forbidden are to try and imitate God’s creation. Like say, for example, I draw a picture of a girl wih black hair, and say, blue eyes. Like I just "design" her. But to use a stylized depiction of a lion, or say a falcon, there is nothing wrong with that.
As to the banner, well no one would find it offensive, since:
1) It is a heraldic banner. It is a stylized symbol.
2) Hope this isn’t off topic, but that isn’t the type of thing that offends us. For example, if I see a guy who is non-Muslim eating pork, he is non-Muslim! What more can I do or say? And by the way, all those stories about us being offended by images of Pigglet from Winnie the Pooh ( a very popular cartoon with my toddler cousins), are just sensationalism out to depict us as unrational beings. Some things, proclaimed by certain groups, are not true, and Islam is innocent of what they say. The Prophet himself (peace be upon him) said that we are "Ummah wasat". A nation (i.e, group, community) of moderation.
Back to the topic of heraldry: Persia (the REAL name of Iran, we don’t ask foreigners to call us Misr, it’s the same thing), used a flag carrying a lion and sword, what more can I say? The Mamluk sultan Baybars used a lion, and the Victorious Saladdin used an eagle (basis for Egypt and other arab state emblems). Hassan may be posting soon on Mameluke heraldry, so keep an eye out!
Regards,
http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/a8b192edaf.gif
Per fess, or and gules. In chief a Hieroglyph "Meh" Or, and in base two Ka arms Gules.
http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/bc6f9f6a1c.gif
Azure, seme of Ankhs Or. (Ankhey?) I have a feeling that if my Egyptian heraldry becomes popular, this charge will be used ad nauseum.
http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/4cb1c7c2e7.gif
Vert, on a pale Or, the hieroglyph "Nefer" gules, between two (I’m sorry, I have no idea as to the name, I haven’t been into Egyptology in a long time) ropey-thingys Or.
http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/bcafbfbcc7.gif
Gules, the Khepher beetle Azure fimbriated Or, between four ancient Egyptian numeral 100, Or.
MohamedHossam wrote:
Azure, seme of Ankhs Or. (Ankhey?)
clever :wookie:
David Pritchard wrote:
Do you actually believe that modern day Muslim Egyptians would use hieroglyphs as charges in personal heraldry? The originators of this writing system were after all idolaters.
As a matter of fact, during the 1940’s there were heraldic banners created for each of the Egyptian provinces that were of ancient Egyptian design. The designs were often of ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses. For the most part, the charges were all hieroglyphs.
There was also a state issued stamp that depicted Thoth, the ancient Egyptian God of wisdom and writing inscribing the name of King Fouad I in hieroglyphs ca 1929, I believe.
David Pritchard wrote:
This brings up a related question that I have been wanting to ask for many years. Is European heraldry that uses living things as charges offensive to Muslims? For example, do pedestrians passing in front of the British Embassy in Cairo see the Royal Arms think to themselves graven image or do they see the arms simply as a symbol of the UK? If I lived in a Muslim country and flew a heraldic banner (with its barnyard full of creatures) over my house would my neighbors find it offensive?
I must say that I would find it not worth my time to even engage with any Moslem who defines heraldic charges as grave images. Keep in mind, and Mohamed is absolutely correct, Islamic civilizations had a system of heraldry comparable to that of Europe (at the time) and Japan. The lion, horse, eagle, double headed eagle, and falcon were common charges in their system of heraldry. So, I am not sure on what grounds any Moslem can argue the issue today. I am working on uploading images so that I can start that thread.
As a matter of fact, my maternal grandfather’s arms were Or, three scarabs Sable (The scarab being an ancient Egyptian symbolic representation of the early morning Sun, new beginnings, becoming, self creation…etc). His supporters were two falcons and his crest was a falcon alighting with wings inverted downwards (not sure of the exact blazon). My paternal grandfather used two lions for his supporters and we never thought of those as graven images. General Soliman Pasha, commander of Mohamed Ali Pasha’s army used a Napleonic eagle as one of the charges in his arms.
You will not find statues or paintings of people or animals in Egyptian mosques for example; however their homes may be filled with art of that nature. Egyptians pass the Egyptian Museum each day and it is filled with ancient Egyptian artifacts and modern representation of Gods and Goddesses decorating the building on the outside. That building was built in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I believe. That’s considered modern Islamic era, I would say.
For one, my grandmother’s sister was an art collector. She had many statues, paintings (some of the people in the nude), and portraits all over her house.. That is considered art, not idolatry, at least by educated Moslems. In fact, I remember sitting listening to her play her grand piano with a huge painting of Mozart playing his piano with angels flying above the scene. I guess what I am trying to say, David, is please don’t see the Moslems you hear about on the news and think that all Moslems think and act the same way. The Taliban blasting the statues of Buddha in Afghanistan is barbarism, not Islam. The "Moslems" who advocated burning one of the few original copies of the "One Thousand and One Nights" in the Egyptian National Library are uneducated haters of civilization and culture.
Once again, I strayed off the topic of heraldry and I apologize to all.
Warm regards,
*edited by member*
As I’m sure Hassan and Mohamed would be the first to attest, there are many within the billion+ Islamic community who would indeed see any representation of any part of the human form as idolatrous, especially those for whom the term "worship" is considered as encompassing all aspects of human endeavor. In some Muslim countries, little girls aren’t allowed to have dolls, for this very reason. (Note: This isn’t just a Muslim thing—Amish dolls don’t have faces.)
So David’s question is not as far-fetched as it may seem, although obviously I think Hassan’s answer to the question is the correct one.
Quote:
Originally Post by Hassan:
I guess what I am trying to say, David, is please don’t see the Moslems you hear about on the news and think that all Moslems think and act the same way. The Taliban blasting the statues of Buddha in Afghanistan is barbarism, not Islam. The "Moslems" who advocated burning one of the few original copies of the "One Thousand and One Nights" in the Egyptian National Library are uneducated haters of civilization and culture
Thank you so much! I have been trying to explain this to various people in various places over a span of 5 or 6 years (i.e, after 9/11). Thank you so much Hassan for illustrating this point to the fine gentlemen on this site.
As to your maternal grandfather’s arms, that is extremely interesting as to the use of a scarab as a charge in heraldry. (See the example of Egyptian heraldry I designed, number 4). As to the heraldic banners of the provinces, this is very strange, but would you believe once I designed arms for the provinces for fun, and put them on a shield quartered, with the Royal Arms (azure, a crescent and three stars argent) in estucheon, all topped by the Royal Crown. I also designed, for fun also, a system of heraldry, based on the Napoleonic one (with chiefs Vert, bearing variously, a crescent and between one and three stars Or, as well as the Royal Cyhpers). I guess that means that my heraldic ideas are very reasonable, and not so "out there".
Hey Hassan, if you have images of any of the things you mentioned (I have already seen your paternal grandfather’s arms w/ supporters, though) I would positvely love to see them!
Joe, with all due respect I have never ever heard of this Muslim girls not being allowed to have dolls. Now let me tell you something, my maternal grandfather came from a family of Muqri’ (reciters of the Quran), as well as being a Hafiz (memorized the entire Quran by heart), he was a very good, pious Muslim man. My mother and aunt all played with dolls when they were young. My sister and female cousins all played with dolls. I think the case you are talking about is probably something that came out of Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan or some other countries that often times say things that are very extreme and many times not true. Once again, sorry for getting off the topic of heraldry…
Kindest regards,
Joseph McMillan wrote:
As I’m sure Hassan and Mohamed would be the first to attest, there are many within the billion+ Islamic community who would indeed see any representation of any part of the human form as idolatrous, especially those for whom the term "worship" is considered as encompassing all aspects of human endeavor. In some Muslim countries, little girls aren’t allowed to have dolls, for this very reason. (Note: This isn’t just a Muslim thing—Amish dolls don’t have faces.)
So David’s question is not as far-fetched as it may seem, although obviously I think Hassan’s answer to the question is the correct one.
Joe,
Once again, I agree with you 100%. I think that David’s question is very much in place, but the key word in your argument is “in some,” not most and not the initial thought that comes to mind when I hear of a Moslem society. I would argue that where you find the interpretation of “any part of the human form as idolatrous” would be among Salafis and hardliner Hanbalis (two relatively recently formed sects out of many Moslem ones). Just like I can’t take the actions and interpretations of one Christian or Jewish sect to stand for all schools of thought, the same applies for Islam and I am sure other religions. The idea of graven images in Islam is the same as in Judaism. However, I have many Jewish friends who not think twice about displaying statues and painting in their homes; the same with Moslem families.
To your point, in “some” Moslem families, dolls are not permitted, but again, that would be a minority and has not been my experience in Egypt. In fact, Egyptians gift their little girls with dolls made of candy on the occasion of the birth of Mohamed, Islam’s prophet. They also gift their little boys with knights mounted on horseback made of the same candy. So, again, the Egyptian experience is different from other Middle Eastern cultures. The same is true for Europeans. While they may be mostly Christian, the way Christianity is interpreted in one culture is different from that of a neighboring country/culture.
When David speaks of modern Moslems, what exactly would that mean? Not picking on you David, just wondering and playing the devil’s advocate. I would say that currently Islam is going through an “identity crisis.” And IMO, Moslems are in need of some major self reflection at the national consciousness level. So is this present day Moslems or a couple of generations back? I would say that modern Islamic era started with the early 1900s or so.
For the sake of argument I am going to use the last of Moslem Caliphs as an example. After all, he was THE representative of all Moslems, at least the Sunnis who form the majority. That would be Abdulmedjid II of Turkey. He was the 101st and final Caliph. His tenure as Caliph lasted from November 19, 1922 to March 3, 1924, when the office of the Caliphate was abolished by the Turkish National Assembly and the Ottoman Imperial Family was sent to exile. The Caliph was the Chairman of the Ottoman Artist’s Society. He was an accomplished painter and calligrapher. His painting of the Harem life and portraits of his friends were on display at the Ottoman Painting Exhibit in Vienna in 1918. One of his famous portraits was that of a woman (no head cover) reading Goethe’s Faust. The Caliph was an intellect in his day and spoke multiple languages fluently. In fact he has sketched a few Ottoman arms. I do need to find all of those in my library. However, for now, here are some pictures of a true gentleman, intellect, and Caliph of all the Moslems. This is an example of a Moslem that all looked up to…even after he went into exile.
These are random thoughts and it is to demonstrate that all Moslems are not alike. The problem with Moslems today is that they have no heroes. Due to that, they look up to brigands and thugs for guidance in matter of faith, religion, and of how one lives their daily life. However, one has to look at what lead to the sad situation we are currently facing, in order to assess, understand and address the situation or question at hand. That problem at hand is the narrow minded and limiting view and interpretation of Islamic teachings that cripple the mind, not expand it.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/Kelisli/Islamic_Heraldry/Abdulmecid_II_00.jpg
Caliph Abdulmedjid II, 101st Caliph and 37th head of the House of Osmanoglu of Turkey
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Prince Abdulmedjid Efendi as Crown Prince, with his daughter, Princess Hadice Hayriye Ayshe Durrusehvar Sultan
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/Kelisli/Islamic_Heraldry/Abdulmecid_II_01.jpg
Caliph Abdulmedjid II during the wedding ceremony of his daughter, Princess Durrusehvar to the son of the last Nizam of Hayderabad. One can see that the daughter of the Caliph of all Moslems was not covered in any way, shape or form. This new phenomenon is a plague that is ravaging the Moslem world.
Once again, this is a fairly lengthy answer and I completely understand if the moderator removes it as it does no necessarily pertain to heraldry.
MohamedHossam wrote:
Hey Hassan, if you have images of any of the things you mentioned (I have already seen your paternal grandfather’s arms w/ supporters, though) I would positvely love to see them!
Unfortunately, I don’t currently have those images as they are between my library in Fairfax, VA (and I am currently in San Antonio) and my family home in Egypt. I do know that the flags of the provinces were published in a commemorative issue of al-Musawar magazine (pre 1952, of course). I will look it up when I am in VA next.
The use of ancient Egyptian charges (in civic and personal heraldry) has been practiced by many people, in the west and well as the Middle East.
Cheers,
MohamedHossam wrote:
I see no reason why we would object to the use of it. I didn’t include any images of ancient Egyptian gods and godesses! Though come to think of it, they would make great supporters…....
Regards,
An example Horus used as supporter of Lord Tedder’s arms. The first baron Tedder served as commander of the RAF in the Middle East during World War II and later was Eisenhower’s deputy.
Kelisli wrote:
For the sake of argument I am going to use the last of Moslem Caliphs as an example. After all, he was THE representative of all Moslems, at least the Sunnis who form the majority. That would be Abdulmedjid II of Turkey. He was the 101st and final Caliph. His tenure as Caliph lasted from November 19, 1922 to March 3, 1924, when the office of the Caliphate was abolished by the Turkish National Assembly and the Ottoman Imperial Family was sent to exile.
Interestingly, last year I received a letter from the grandson of the last Caliph of Islam, Osman Rifat Ibrahim (who lives in Spain). A photograph of the seal on the letter can be seen here: http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00182gd5.jpg
Dear Marcus,
Thanks for sharing one of the many examples I was thinking of and could not find any pictures to post. Indeed a beautiful example. I do recall the Egyptian royal arms were once supported by the God of the Nile as supporters. I don’t believe that they were ever officially adopted as supporters, but I do recall seeing that somewhere.
Dear David
Yes indeed, Prince or Nabil (as his official Egyptian title) Osman Rifat Ibrahim is related to the Caliph on his mother’s side (an Ottoman princess) and his father was an Egyptian prince. I understand he published a book about the Egyptian royal family, but in French.
Thanks for sharing his stamp.
