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Though I cannot be certain, I shall guess that these arms, ensigned with the coronet of an earl, are the arms of Randal MacDonell, Viscount Dunluce and 2nd Earl of Antrim, who married Lady Catherine Manners, Dowager Marchioness of Buckingham, in 1635 and lived in the Castle of Dunluce.

Here are the arms of the present day (14th) Earl of Antrim:

http://www.clandonald.org.uk/chiefs/images/antrimarmssm.jpg

A link to a short article about him: http://www.clandonald.org.uk/chiefs/antrim.html

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Dennis,

The inheritance of Irish arms is a muddied mess as you have pointed out. I only stated that the original arms about which you asked were probably those of the second earl. It is much easier to trace a peer than a clan chief. I would never dare venture to say who is or is not the rightful clan chief after all of the improprieties or malfeasance that Sean Murphy has documented or attempted to document at the Genealogical Office, especially under the administration of the former Chief Herald Donal Begley.

Hey, Denny! This is fascinating stuff. I’m sure you’ve noticed that the Dunluce arms are not the same as MacDonnel of the Glens as the fields are different colors (even if the charges are the same). This might indicate that the owner of these arms had a very distant claim to the chiefdom, but again, with Western Highland quarterings like these, it’s really hard to tell. And, of course, as David has pointed out, they really do appear to be the arms of Randal MacDonel, 2nd Earl of Antrim who, while not the chief, was a MacDonnel and therefore probably eligible for a differenced set of the MacDonnel arms.

More on this: indeed, Denny, you are right that these arms are not McDonnell of the "Glens of Antrim". And indeed David is right that they are simply "Antrim".

Check this chart: http://www.clandonald.org.uk/chiefs.htm

The Earl of Antrim is listed as "a chief of clan Donald" as he is a descendant of John MacDonald (died 1386 ) 3rd of the Isles 1st Lord. But the Earl is "of Antrim", not "of the Glens of Antrim" as they are descended from a younger cadet of Alexander MacDonald (died 1538 ) 5th of Dunivaig & the Glens of Antrim.

So ... the bearer of these arms is considered Chief of Antrim, but not Chief of the Glens of Antrim. They do, however, have a claim on the arms as they are descended from a cadet family and have apparently differenced them by changing the field colors. And as the chiefship of the Glens went vacant in 1626 with the death of Sir James MacDonnell 9th of Dunivaig & the Glens of Antrim, then the Earl of Antrim might also be considered the chief of Clan Donald South. But not chief of MacDonnell of the Glens of Antrim.

Confused yet? I know I am! :D

Patrick Williams wrote:

So ... the bearer of these arms is considered Chief of Antrim, but not Chief of the Glens of Antrim. They do, however, have a claim on the arms as they are descended from a cadet family and have apparently differenced them by changing the field colors. And as the chiefship of the Glens went vacant in 1626 with the death of Sir James MacDonnell 9th of Dunivaig & the Glens of Antrim, then the Earl of Antrim might also be considered the chief of Clan Donald South. But not chief of MacDonnell of the Glens of Antrim.

The Earl of Antrim’s Gaelic patronymic is Mac Somhairle Buidhe  [Son of "Sorley Boy"]

AND .... The Right Honourable Godfrey James Macdonald of Macdonald, High Chief of Clan Donald, certainly knows who his chiefs are:

http://www.clandonaldchiefs.org.uk/antrim/antrim.htm

[NB: url above states "14th Earl of Antrim"; Burke’s and other genealogical sites lists him as 9th Earl.  He is the 9th Earl, but the 14th Earl if you include all the Earls/Countesses; cf: http://www.clandonald.org.uk/chiefs.htm.  Note the first line of 6 earls, then 2 countesses; then the earl lineage picks up again starting with the "4th earl" (who is de jure 9th earl). ]

Sir Ian Macdonald of Sleat wrote:

Sir Ian of Sleat notes he was privileged to announce the addition of the Earl of Antrim to the High Council of Clan Donald several years ago at Glencoe.

NB: Sir Ian is a cousin of Lord Macdonald, and second, if I recall correctly, in chiefly precedence.  Though—until the late 1800s the various Clan Donald chiefs, when assembled at an event together, would toss a coin to see which among them would be the "Chief of Clan Donald" that day/event.

Cheers,

—Guy

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This is fascinating. And it begs these questions: why doesn’t Ireland have her own clan associations? And who granted those arms to the Earldom of Antrim? From my reading online, it looks like the Earldom of Antrim was really an English invention pushed through Irish Dominion Government. I mean, the family lives in Renfrewshire, England, for cat’s sake. Were they ever Irish? Is the grant of arms (notice how I’m trying to stay on-topic! ) Irish?

Here we read from Guy Powers’ post: "Sir Ian of Sleat notes he was privileged to announce the addition of the Earl of Antrim to the High Council of Clan Donald several years ago at Glencoe." So the Earl of Antrim, whether born a McDonnell or not, is a member of the High Council of Clan Donald, and as the chart on the website shows is ‘accepted’ as the Chief of the McDonnells of Antrim by the Chief of Clan Donald in Scotland (whether he should be or not). But is he a member of the Scottish Council of Highland Chiefs? If not, shouldn’t he really be styled a Chieftain?

And why is Scotland deciding who the Chiefs of Ireland are in the first place?

Okay, to answer one of my own questions: The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs (I named them wrong in the last post ... my bad) does not list McDonnell of Antrim (or the Glens). Which I guess means little, as they also don’t list MacTavish and there is (with some debate) a recognized Chief of Clan Tavish.

Patrick Williams wrote:

I mean, the family lives in Renfrewshire, England, for cat’s sake.

It’s bad enough the English are still occupying Berwick-upon-Tweed without your giving away Renfrew as well.  I mean, one of the Duke of Rothesay’s subsidiary titles is Baron Renfrew, so let’s hope the place is still in Scotland!

On substance:

The arms don’t belong to the Earldom of Antrim; they belong to the Earl of Antrim.

Scottish clan chiefships and chieftainships routinely pass through female lines in default of male heirs.  The only stipulation is that to be given armorial recognition by Lyon Court the chief has to bear the name of the clan.  There are a couple of cases where full brothers are chiefs of different clans or names, one in right of his father, the other in right of his mother, the two brothers bearing different surnames accordingly.

I may have missed it, but I don’t see anything saying the earl is the chief(tain) of anything called the MacDonnells of Antrim.  I see that he is named MacDonnell, and is Earl of Antrim, and is a member of the council of Clan Donald.  The Clan MacDonald website lists an Antrim line among the "chiefs" of the clan, but the names listed don’t follow the normal chief(tain) numbering style found in the other houses:  10th of Glengarry, 17th of Sleat, 4th of Clanranald, etc.  I think the chief of Clan Donald can probably name anyone he wants to the clan council, but his doing so doesn’t necessarily make that person a chieftain.

Are we sure this isn’t a tempest in a teapot?

Perhaps it is ... wait a moment, I’ll check my teapot.

Nope, no tempest in there.

http://www.clandonald.org.uk/news.htm

Quote:

The Chief of the McDonnells of Antrim, The Right Honourable Alexander Randal Mark McDonnell, the 9th Earl of Antrim and 14th Chief of the McDonnells of Antrim, announces with pleasure the birth of a grandson, Alexander David Somerled McDonnell, born on Friday, June 30, 2006 to Lord Antrim’s son and heir, The Rt. Hon. Randal McDonnell, The Viscount Dunluce, and his wife, Aurora McDonnell, The Viscountess Dunluce.

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