David Pritchard, are you joking or is there really a book or publication to such an extremely almost comically specific and exact topic?
Cheers,
MohamedHossam;44162 wrote:
David Pritchard, are you joking or is there really a book or publication to such an extremely almost comically specific and exact topic?
I will let you decide if such a book exists. Most of us familiar with academics would be reluctant to place a bet that a paper, so absurdly named, has not been submitted for an advanced degree in art history at some university in the world.
Question: Is it possible to use a crest (with or without mantling) with a cartouche? It occurred to me that my wife may simply prefer to bear my arms with a pomegranate or a demi-angel as a crest. (It was my intent from the beginning that my arms would be differenced by using various crests anyway).
Will, I guess it depends on what you mean. When I think ‘cartouche’ I see the Egyptian heiroglyphic version, which certainly could be used as a crest. If you mean using your shield as a family identifier and then changing crests for individual identification, that has and can certainly be done. Keep in mind that your wife and minor children have courtesy use of your arms as they are because they’re your wife and kids.
I took it that William meant using a crest with the arms themselves displayed on a cartouche, i.e., and oval shield.
You can, but it seems a bit odd to difference a wife’s achievement this way. You give her a cartouche rather than a regular escutcheon—presumably showing that she’s female—then top it off not only with a crest (at which Anglophile heraldists all shudder) but with a unique crest that doesn’t belong to the arms. I can’t articulate why this doesn’t make sense to me, but it doesn’t.
Maybe your best bet is to do a version of the arms on an oval with a wreath of fruited pomegranate branches around it, and no crest. Or even with the branches arranged around it sort of like this:
If I understand you properly, Joseph, I have two options:
My shield and crest, my sons (using my shield) with their own crests, my daughter uses my shield on a lozenge (sans crest), my wife uses my shield on a cartouche (sans crest).
OR
My sons and I use my shield with various crests, my daughter and wife adopt their own shields with their own crests.
However, if I go with option two, my wife is not particularly thrilled with a helmet. Since we do not use crowns and such, is there any "traditional" headgear option a woman can use with a standard shield? I know others have said you can have a crest without a helmet, but that seems a bit "aestetically unpleasing" to me.
It depends on how traditional you want to be. Leaving out all the arcane possibilities:
Traditional English:
Sons: Your arms differenced for cadency, your crest (differencing for cadency often ignored in practice).
Daughters: Your arms on a lozenge, no crest or helm.
Wife: If she has arms (traditionally this would only be in right of her father): On a shield, without a crest or helm, with your arms impaled to dexter and her father’s to sinister. If she doesn’t: Your arms on a shield without a crest and helm.
Traditional American Variations from English: (Based on review of historic examples of arms used by American women, plus Zieber’s description of late 19th century practice, which he considered wrong:)
Sons: Same as English.
Daughters: Same as English, but with your crest on a torse; no helm.
Wife: Your arms impaled with her father’s (if any) on a lozenge, with your crest on a torse with no helm.
The cartouche has gained in popularity for artistic reasons. It is found in the arms of Scottish women in particular, with the crest with no helm if they are armigerous in their own right. See, e.g., the arms of Elizabeth Roads, Lyon Clerk (bookplate by Gordon Macpherson):
http://www.heraldic-arts.com/Artists/Macpherson/Roads_300.gif
See the guidelines for heraldic practice on the main AHS site for the more lenient, liberal (anarchistic! I hear the purists screaming) set of modern guidelines we promulgated a couple of months ago.
OK, Henrys are from Scotland, I can live with it. That is a lovely bookplate, by the way.
Well, could one of our computer gurus put something together on a cartouche as follows:
Argent, a chevron Gules charged with three bees volant, between three pomegranates seeded, slipped and leaved Proper.
On a wreath of the colours a demi-angel issuant Proper, winged Or, habited Argent, bearing in the dexter hand a pomegranate Proper.
My wife still believes that there are basic differences between men and women (imagine that!), and it might be an easier "sell" if I could show her something on a cartouche, rather than a shield. Let us proceed in this fashion…at least for the time being.
Pr. William,
Are you looking for something like this?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/pblanton/Mrs-Henry.jpg
Take care,
Hey, that’s kinda purty! Thanks, Phil!
Could someone attempt the following on a cartouche:
Gules, a chevron Or with three bees volant, between three pomegranates seeded, slipped and leaved gold.
On a wreath of the colours a pelican in her piety.
A link to show what I have in mind:
http://www.heraldic-arts.com/Artists/Ferguson/Smallarms.gif
David Pritchard has a wonderful rendition of the pelican surmounted with halo…if I might impose here to have it posted? (Hint, hint)
A blazon quibble: unless you want the bees in profile flying to dexter, omit "volant." Assuming the bees are to be seem from above, with their heads to chief, just saying "bees" will suffice.
Here is the pelican-in-its-piety crest that you asked to have posted. It is from the arms of the Portuguese noble family of Gomes:
That is simply beautiful! Thank you, David! I suppose the blazon would need to change to have the "cross halo" behind the pelican as depicted.
No laughing. When I say "cut and paste," I mean scissors, colored pencils, tape, and scan. (Much lower learning curve.) But, this is what I was aiming for (more or less):
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z242/WBHenry/CCF05042007_00000.jpg
Thought? Comments? A better rendition? But with a cartouche and a wreath.
Two things I like about this particular crest: It depicts three "chicks" (we have three children), and the halo behind the head of the mother pelican.
Also, is anyone aware of the use of a pomegranate seeded, but without the "foliage" beneath it?
