In a separate thread, I talked about the possibility of adding an Eastern Crown in my coat of arms. Alternatively, I thought it might be far more interesting to invent a new coronet, which I would like to call a "dharmapala crown".
"Dharmapala" is a Sanskrit word consisting of two root words: "dharma" meaning the law and alluding to Hindu/Buddhist canonical law and "pala" meaning protector. Together the compound word means "protector of the Dharma".
The proposed blazon is: "a circlet the upper rim set with dharmachakras alternating with two tulwars in saltire the points and edges upward". It is intended that the new coronet appear in gold (Or) though any color or metal is possible. "Dharmachakra" is Sanskrit for dharma wheel and "tulwars" are sabers commonly found in India and occassionally found in slightly different forms into further India.
I would greatly appreciate insights from members of this forum especially with regard to the blazon.
I forgot to mention that the inspiration of the Dharmapala crown is the Loyalist military coronet. Some examples of the latter can be seen at:
http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=25&ProjectElementID=68.
Very interesting idea!
You know, I actually thought of doing something like this once, I wonder what heraldic precedence there is for this.
I know that some South AFrican arms have some very interesting crest coronets made of beads, feathers, plants, etc.
Cheers,
i should’ve looked here first, but see my latest post on the thread you created on eastern coronets.
MohamedHossam;44733 wrote:
Very interesting idea!
You know, I actually thought of doing something like this once, I wonder what heraldic precedence there is for this.
I know that some South AFrican arms have some very interesting crest coronets made of beads, feathers, plants, etc.
Cheers,
Presumably for a Muslim the dharmachakras should be replaced with mullets and the tulwars replaced with shamshirs (for Iranians & Indian muslims), scimitars (for those of Arabic descent) or a batak piso podang (for those of Indonesian/Malaysian descent). The entire coronet could be green (Vert) for the color of Islam though certainly any metal or color could be used.
MohamedHossam;44733 wrote:
Very interesting idea!
You know, I actually thought of doing something like this once, I wonder what heraldic precedence there is for this.
I know that some South AFrican arms have some very interesting crest coronets made of beads, feathers, plants, etc.
Cheers,
Actually, I do not know if it is appropriate/proper for an individual to create a new coronet. I would think his sort of innovation is only possible for state-recognized heralds. However, since America has no state-recognized heralds, then presumably there is nothing stopping a layperson from simply creating a new coronet.
Well the coronet I was going to design for myself consisted of alternating papryus flowers and crescents. I wanted to put this coronet above my shield, so I don’t know how well that would go. Seems a bit too pretenious in my opinion to place it atop the shield, but thats just me.
I think putting it as a charge on the shield would be a very nice idea.
BTW, what is your first name, or how would you like to be addressed? It’s kinda hard to reply to someone without mentioning them, or directing any sort of "recognition" towards them. :D
Cheers,
MohamedHossam;44748 wrote:
Well the coronet I was going to design for myself consisted of alternating papryus flowers and crescents. I wanted to put this coronet above my shield, so I don’t know how well that would go. Seems a bit too pretenious in my opinion to place it atop the shield, but thats just me.
I think putting it as a charge on the shield would be a very nice idea.
BTW, what is your first name, or how would you like to be addressed? It’s kinda hard to reply to someone without mentioning them, or directing any sort of "recognition" towards them. :D
Cheers,
Placing a coronet above one’s shield is a tricky affair. It’s far safer to place it on the shield or incorporate it it in the crest. Also, I liked the idea of creating a new coronet as opposed to assuming an eastern crown, to which I may not be entitled (at least from the viewpoint of British heralds).
Please call me Edward or Ed. You can see my arms and learn alittle more about me at: http://www.armorial-register.com/arms-za/arms-ploysongsang-et.html. Best regards.
eploy;44772 wrote:
Placing a coronet above one’s shield is a tricky affair. It’s far safer to place it on the shield or incorporate it it in the crest.
I agree. From a British perspective, a coronet above the shield denotes a degree in the peerage, so to adopt one there, given the weight of tradition which British heraldry has in the USA, could be embarrassing. The so-called ducal coronet, which is not the coronet of a Duke and is better called a crest coronet, can be used instead of the torse of the crest, without making any statement about one’s status. A number of coats of arms I have seen, have developed this theme with other types of crest coronet. See for example the arms of Lescott at http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/membarms.html, then search in the Scottish Arms section.
I do not think that an antique crown, as used in the Grant and McArthur arms, and in a quartering of the Fraser of Lovat arms, (see the member’s gallery noted above for examples) in Scotland, would be seen as anything other than a simple charge. Whether the CoA used it to denote service in the East, I do not know, but certainly in Scots arms it has no such connotation.
It is a fine, distinctive and simple charge, which looks particularly good in gold. It could equally be used instead or a torse under the crest. Go for it!
Alex Maxwell Findlater;44782 wrote:
The so-called ducal coronet, which is not the coronet of a Duke and is better called a crest coronet, can be used instead of the torse of the crest, without making any statement about one’s status.
This information is from a totally British stand point. The so-called crest coronet is known as a noble coronet in the territories that once made up the German Empire, the Russian Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Furthermore, in the present day realms of Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden and Luxembourg this coronet is reserved for the untitled nobility.
David Pritchard;44783 wrote:
This information is from a totally British stand point. The so-called crest coronet is known as a noble coronet in the territories that once made up the German Empire, the Russian Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Furthermore, in the present day realms of Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden and Luxembourg this coronet is reserved for the untitled nobility.
The untitled nobility in the Netherlands uses this crown : a ring without jewels with 5 pearls on gold points the ring wound with a strings of pearls of which of which 2 pieces of 4 pearls are visible.
Thank you for reminding me about the special coronet that the Dutch untitled nobility use. Sometimes when I make a list, too many names are added. It seems that the Dutch have their own way when if comes to heraldic coronets in general. The so-called crest coronet of British heraldry is actually used as a comital civic coronet in the Netherlands.
David Pritchard;44783 wrote:
This information is from a totally British stand point. The so-called crest coronet is known as a noble coronet in the territories that once made up the German Empire, the Russian Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Furthermore, in the present day realms of Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden and Luxembourg this coronet is reserved for the untitled nobility.
Of course it is from a British perspective. I started the post by saying
Quote:
From a British perspective
On the basis of your list, a crest coronet should be emminently suitable for an armiger who is untitled, for that is what those jurisdictions mean by untitled nobilty.
David, I can see this and I am the first to mention that American heraldry, while based primarily on the British model(s) is not strictly a British heraldic child. So, your points have great merit in that regard and I think all would do well to keep that in mind.
But, in this case, Edward was wanting one that was specifically geared towards his future procurement of a British grant (ECOA or LL). So, Alex’s comments on ducal coronets and even the ancient coronet were meant, I think though I don’t want to speak for him, as a reflection of that.
As I mentioned in your other thread Edward, I think the use of a unique, or culturally distinctive, coronet is a great one. I would encourage it. I also, as I said, would encourage the use of an ancient coronet if you went that route.
As an aside, I think it is a good idea, though not necessary, to place a crest coronet inside of a wreath, as one finds in most of the Canadian grants I’ve seen anyway, so as to make sure it is not seen as a coronet of nobility from any standpoint, but rather what it is, which is a simple crest coronet. In my latest version of my own arms I placed the ancient Irish coronet inside a wreath and it still looked every bit as attractive as the previous versions where I did not have it. Just some food for thought…
Thanks, Denny. I was really commenting on the sentiments in posting No 8, both in the quote and in the reply. I was also alluding to the discussion of eastern crowns which occurred on another thread between some of the same participants.
It seemed to me that these earlier posts did discuss the relationship of the proposals to English practice at least, and so a posting about that was not out of place.
I should perhaps point out, for the avoidance of confusion, that in Scotland crest coronets are reserved for chiefs, all other have torses. Usually, if not always in England, the crest coronet would be in place of the torse, rather than in addition to it.
None of these matters have other than persuasive effect in the USA, but when viewed by foreigners (like me) sometimes because of our traditions a statement can be perceived in a coat of arms, when it was not in the mind of the originator.
David Pritchard;44791 wrote:
Thank you for reminding me about the special coronet that the Dutch untitled nobility use. Sometimes when I make a list, too many names are added. It seems that the Dutch have their own way when if comes to heraldic coronets in general. The so-called crest coronet of British heraldry is actually used as a comital civic coronet in the Netherlands.
Sorry to have to correct you again, but that is not true there are 2 pearls between the leaves. As you can see in these arms.
http://www.terneuzen.nl/topics/algemeen/geschiedenis/index/gemeentewapen.jpg
this crown is the most used in Dutch civic heraldry but there is another one one with 5 leaves this is used for the bigger communities and waterboards that have the sea as a border. Other crowns are also used, for example Amsterdam uses the Austrian Emperors crown.
