Hey everybody.

A question that had been going through my mind, are furs ever used as livery colors? Is that even possible? Just curious, don’t want to actually use any furs as liveries personally. :D Was wondering if there was any historical precedent for this.

Cheers,

How can furs be livery colours as they are furs not colours? Perhaps someone on this forum knows what livery colours were used by the retainers of the Duke of Brittany whose arms consisted of an escutcheon Ermine.

hmm…good questions mohamed and i dont know david. i can look through my books later…but i dont know myself…what would his liveries be? good example anyway.

Or and Argent aren’t colors, either, but they are livery. I see no problem with furs as livery, but I would imagine that ermine might be looked on as too too.

Totally popping off here, but I guess I look at it the other way: there’s nothing to prevent you from using your livery colors in the fur vair, or to use pean in your arms because your livery colors are Or and Sable. But a fur as a livery color I don’t think works, mainly because it’s not practical.

Wouldn’t it be a "livery fur" instead of a "livery color" then? 

Take care,

Despite it’s impracticality, I was looking at pics in some of my books and noticed that there were a few (just a very few) achievements whose mantlings were Tincture doubled in a Fur. Metal doubled in fur would indicated royalty, of course, and should be avoided, imho, however, I see no reason that the mantling colors could not contain a fur.

Patrick Williams;46347 wrote:

Despite it’s impracticality, I was looking at pics in some of my books and noticed that there were a few (just a very few) achievements whose mantlings were Tincture doubled in a Fur. Metal doubled in fur would indicated royalty, of course, and should be avoided, imho, however, I see no reason that the mantling colors could not contain a fur.

I see nothing wrong with using a fur for mantling (as long as it isn’t Or doubled Ermine, Gules doubled Ermine, Azure doubled Ermine, or Azure doubled Ermines), but mantling and livery colors are different beasts altogether. Livery colors are those colors worn by servants and retainers (along with other items such as horse barding, etc.). Livery colors do not need to be the same as mantling colors. For example, while the royal mantling is Or doubled Ermine, the livery colors of the various royal houses of England are as follows:

A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry by James Parker wrote:

The later Plantagenets, white and red.

The House of York, murrey and blue.

The House of Lancaster, white and blue.

The House of Tudor, white and green.

The House of Stuart, yellow and red.

William III. the same; but before his accession blue and orange.

The House of Hanover, scarlet and blue. Before their succession to the English throne they used yellow and red.

Take care,

The use of furs in mantling has been a prerogative of the higher nobility and of royalty for centuries. While there have been occasions where chapeaus turned up ermine have been granted to untitled persons in England and Ireland, I know of no grants of ermine lined mantlings in the UK to untitled persons. As far as I know in France, Spain and Portugal, ermine linings were reserved for the manteaus of peers and grandees. In Russia no one other than the Tsar used ermine on a shield, that being the arms of Siberia and ermine lined manteaus were reserved for those bearing the titles of prince and above.

I have found one example of ermine tabards of varying types for the King-of-Arms, Heralds and Pursuivant-of-Arms of the Duke of Brittany. Illustrations from the late medieval period can be found in Ottfried Neubecker’s book Heraldry Sources Symbols and Meaning.

It is my strong belief that anyone whose arms were ermine for example would use the colours argent and sable unless they used another set of liveries altogether. That written, the same would apply to vair, argent and azure, and so forth and so on with the rest of the list of heraldic furs.

Normally I would agree with not using Ermine as the lining of mantling. However, as always in heraldry it seems, there are exceptions to the rule.

In Ireland not only is “Gules, doubled Argent” an option on all crests of arms but when a shield is Ermine and a color the mantling can also be lined ermine with that color.

So, in Ireland, at least, the lining of mantling with ermine is not a problem only as long as there is ermine on the shield in place of a metal.

But getting back to liveries I am still not so sure. I sure would like to see what Brittany did.

Donnchadh;46356 wrote:

In Ireland not only is “Gules, doubled Argent” an option on all crests of arms but when a shield is Ermine and a color the mantling can also be lined ermine with that color. So, in Ireland, at least, the lining of mantling with ermine is not a problem only as long as there is ermine on the shield in place of a metal.

I am aware that in Ireland the mantlings were for quite a longtime, more often than not, gules doubled argent. I do however take exception with your point that if the field of the escutcheon is ermine that one can use ermine as an alternative lining of the mantling. Prior to 1943, I cannot imagine that Ulster King of Arms would ever grant or confirm arms with an ermine lining of the mantling no matter what the field of the escutcheon was coloured. One must remember that ermine linings were reserved for Irish peers. In looking over those grants of arms depicted on the web site of the Chief Herald of Ireland, I find none with ermine linings, that written, do you have evidence of Irish grants to the contrary?

The Lyon Office and COA reserve ermine linings to Peers and Officers of State. I’m pretty certain that CHI would follow suit in this manner.

PBlanton;46351 wrote:

I see nothing wrong with using a fur for mantling (as long as it isn’t Or doubled Ermine, Gules doubled Ermine, Azure doubled Ermine, or Azure doubled Ermines), but mantling and livery colors are different beasts altogether. Livery colors are those colors worn by servants and retainers (along with other items such as horse barding, etc.). Livery colors do not need to be the same as mantling colors.

Quite true, but more than once in usage (even here) the colors of the lambrequin have been referred to as ‘livery’. I remember quite well when my arms were designed and many who emblazoned them doubled my mantling Or instead of Argent. There was a brief discussion about which looked better and it was suggested by astute members that I "stick to my livery." In other words, the word livery has become a synonym for mantling colors through usage.

As others have said, ermine should be avoided in mantling just as we avoid coronets and supporters: it infers something to the heraldic community and if you don’t have the chops to support that inferrance ...

But what of the other furs? All the variations of Vair (puns intended), the many styles of Ermine that are not Ermine, why not use them? Practicality alone isn’t a convincing argument: none of this is practical (in the sense that I doubt that any of us will be seen riding through the streets on horseback wearing armor and bearing a crest with mantling on our helms).

Perhaps one theory is that mantlings were designed to deflect some of the suns heat. Rather than a cooling effect, the use of furs would have a blanket effect & contain the heat. Ermine linings are probably derived from the robes of estate.

Not to say furs aren’t used. Noble of Ardmore uses a doubling Ermines (Contre-Ermine).

a mantling with vair was used in Napoleonic heraldry for a duke´s arms.

david,

first, in laying out the fact that the irish use the traditional english model of gules doubled argent as an option for 1) to show those who do not know that there can be a different color/metal than the field, and 2) to illustrate the irish situation for being open on these particular part of heraldic display. i did not write it because i thought you personally were unaware of it. that is why i said it in general and having not wrote your name specifically in the response. i apologize if this is what you thought.

now, yes, david, there is evidence. there were threads on this on the previous version of the MB, so one can look there. also i believe that Mr. O Comain himself said it. further, an enquiry to the chief herald’s office will show where this is the case as well. a review of the website of the choi is really not a very good place to look, for it has been languishing since 2001/2002 roughly until last year when i was able to find the postings of 1936-1980 arms and crests only. as everyone knows, there is very little worthwhile at the website for the choi, as it has been neglected by and large. that being said…

give me some time & i will review some of my private emails with Mr. O Comain or i will email him again. he is a slow responder to emails, as is the choi frankly, so give me time on that. until then research the old mb pages on it.

i do believe, however, that the old thread where i posted parts of his email with me on a number of issues including the curious irish mantling practices are in fact in these old threads for this society. perhaps others who partook of those threads can remember what i am referring to and point in the right direction on this. it is where i thought Mr O Comain was being sort of short with my questions, but everyone here said no they didnt read it that way…i hope that jogs everyone’s memory on it.

also i believe it was mentioned at the hss mb as well, but i cant be for certain of that, as i am here.

slan agat mo chara.