Tenant vs. supporter

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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07 August 2012 01:08
 

Michael F. McCartney;95122 wrote:

The nearest analogy I can think of on the spot, would be a British peer who seeks election to the House of Commons—the two statuses (is that a word?) of being a peer and a member of the Commons being oil and water.  The peer must disclaim his title; & if after his term(s) in the Commons come to a close, and the Crown wishes to honor him, the new peerage title will not be a resurrection of the one previously disclaimed.


Though the analogy may be apt, and in its time very appropriate, since the disclaiming of a peerage did not affect the inheritance of that peerage by the next heir when the disclaimed peer died, it is no longer applicable. Since 1999 hereditary peers may only sit in the House of Lords if they are Earl Marshall or Lord Great Chamberlain. Ninety other hereditary peers are elected to it in an election by the peers according to their standing orders. All other hereditary peers may stand for election to the House of Commons without disclaiming. John Sinclair, 3rd Viscount Thurso, was the first hereditary peer to be elected to the commons in 2001. Several sitting MPs have inherited titles Douglas Hogg, 3rd Viscount Hailsham being one that springs to mind.

 

James

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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07 August 2012 11:38
 

James - thanks for the update, demonstrating (among other things) the danger of analogies!  FWIW the change in British parliamentary practice, while of obvious political & social interest in the context of British law & society, doesn’t change the basic argument in the American context.

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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12 December 2012 21:53
 

Quote:

Supporters: I have no problem with an American like Winthrop Aldrich [7] using supporters. In Ambassador Aldrich’s context, his supporters reflect his status as an honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire.


My bad…I forgot about another US Ambassador who also used supporters with his arms: William Lester Eagleton (1926-2011).  Eagleton used "two lions regardant Gules semee of Crescents and Kurdish Suns Or armed and langued Azure each holding that to the dexter in its sinister foreclaws and that to the sinister in the dexter foreclaws a Palm Branch proper."

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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12 December 2012 23:54
 

Seb quoted someone (after 20+ pages I can’t keep up!) "Supporters: I have no problem with an American like Winthrop Aldrich [7] using supporters. In Ambassador Aldrich’s context, his supporters reflect his status as an honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire."

And Seb then added, "My bad…I forgot about another US Ambassador who also used supporters with his arms: William Lester Eagleton (1926-2011). Eagleton used "two lions regardant Gules semee of Crescents and Kurdish Suns Or armed and langued Azure each holding that to the dexter in its sinister foreclaws and that to the sinister in the dexter foreclaws a Palm Branch proper."

 

For Ambassador Aldritch to use his OBE supporters in connection with activities of the OBE is, I suppose but reluctantly, not entirely inconsistent with our Guidelines.  Analogous perhaps to wearing the gongs of that Order, & hanging them below his shield, in the context of activities of that group, or at least British-oriented groups—though IMO (FWIW) supporters are more egregious than a mere gong.  Beyond that, I don’t see it as a "best practice" for display in an American context unless Congress, in their infinite wisdom (what’s the icon for sarcasm?) were to grant him approval to do so.

 

As for Ambassador Eagleton, Seb doesn’t say & I don’t know where he got them or why.  If they were granted by some foreign sovereign, then I suppose (with equal reluctance) that it would be essentially the same as Aldritch.  If on the other hand he just assumed them because he thought they would look nice, then ... nuff said.  (I am curious as to the factual background.)

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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13 December 2012 07:59
 

Michael F. McCartney;96783 wrote:

what’s the icon for sarcasm?

nothing standardized, but perhaps there should be…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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13 December 2012 15:30
 

Having accessed Steve’s looooong wiki link, methinks he could use one as well… smile

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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15 December 2012 16:39
 

Quote:

As for Ambassador Eagleton, Seb doesn’t say & I don’t know where he got them or why…I am curious as to the factual background.


Hi Mike,

 

Ambassador Eagleton’s arms, crest and supporters are illustrated and blazoned on page 40 of the Heraldic Register of America, Vol. 8 (published the American College of Heraldry in 1997).  The entry says that his arms were granted by the College of Arms in 1994, but I don’t know if the supporters were included in the English grant or not.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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15 December 2012 20:31
 

Thanks!

While not relevant to the question of supporters, I am also curious as to the basic arms of these two ambassadors (my passion for eye candy).

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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16 December 2012 14:16
 

Ambassador Eagleton: “...Arms: Azure an Eagle displayed Ermine armed and langued Gules between eight Kurdish Suns Or. Crest: Rising from an Eastern Crown Or charged with four Crosses Potent Gules (two manifest) a demi-Eagle displayed Ermine beaked Or langued Gules holding in the beak a Palm Branch Proper.  Wreath and Mantling: Gules doubled Argent.  Badge: A Cross Potent Gules embracing within its arms four Kurdish Suns Or…Motto emblazoned: Ad Astra Peraspera…”

A black and white photograph of Ambassador Aldrich’s armorial bearings is reproduced on the frontispiece of Debrett’s Guide to Heraldry and Regalia by David Williamson (London, 1992).  The achievement isn’t blazoned, but it is very roughly: between three anchors a fess between two cotises wavy, the fess charged with a bull courant, all within the circlet of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire inscribed with the motto For God And The Empire.  Crest: a ship of three masts in full sail between two sprigs of ??? flowering.  Supporters: On the dexter, a bald eagle wings closed wreathed about its body with a garland and on the sinister, a lion wreathed about its body with a garland.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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18 December 2012 22:01
 

As for the arms themselves, both designs seem attractive enough—fairly simple, with just enough detail to be distinctive.  A decent artist could render either one quite nicely.

I wonder what Eagleton’s Kurdish connection might have been? —or for that matter, what makes a sun Kurdish?

 

And re: Aldrich—a high American official whose armorial achievement is highlighted by "For God and the Empire" ??  What’s wrong with that picture?  Or am I being just too PC?

 

Ah well…

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 December 2012 22:56
 

Michael F. McCartney;96925 wrote:

As for the arms themselves, both designs seem attractive enough—fairly simple, with just enough detail to be distinctive. A decent artist could render either one quite nicely.

I wonder what Eagleton’s Kurdish connection might have been?—or for that matter, what makes a sun Kurdish?


He was ambassador to Syria and wrote extensively about the Kurds.

 

A Kurdish sun has 21 rays, which apparently has mystical significance in one of the ancient pre-Muslim religions of the region inhabited by Kurds.


Quote:

And re: Aldrich—a high American official whose armorial achievement is highlighted by "For God and the Empire" ?? What’s wrong with that picture? Or am I being just too PC?


Well, it would have been a bit of an outrage if it had been his personal motto, but as it is on the circlet of a GBE, I think you have to take it as it comes.

 
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27 July 2018 03:50