My mother grew up in the small town of Braunenweiler in Germany. The arms are as follows:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Wappen_Braunenweiler.png
In Grün schräggekreuzt eine silberne Stange, daran eine silberne Fahne mit durchgehendem rotem Kreuz, und ein silbernes Schwert.
Can anyone identify the significance of this flag?
Thanks,
-Ben
im guessing s. george’s cross arrises from some event or fame aroudn the crusader era.
initially, the flag was of the dodge of venice; was also adopted by the english, which is probably the most famous example. during the crusades, the pope granted s. george’s cross to the french, if i remember right. the english made complaint and were also allowed to adopt the cross, as it was for some time a symbol of the english. eventually, crusaders of all nationality adopted this cross as a symbol of the crusades.
If there are any German speakers that have Stadler’s Deutsche Wappen, I’m sure there is some good background information there. I’d check for you, but my volumes are several thousand miles away in my basement in Chicago.
xanderliptak;61980 wrote:
im guessing s. george’s cross arrises from some event or fame aroudn the crusader era.
initially, the flag was of the dodge of venice; was also adopted by the english, which is probably the most famous example. during the crusades, the pope granted s. george’s cross to the french, if i remember right. the english made complaint and were also allowed to adopt the cross, as it was for some time a symbol of the english. eventually, crusaders of all nationality adopted this cross as a symbol of the crusades.
It seems that Braunenweiler is located in Baden-Wuerttemberg near the Bodensee (Lake Constance). If so, it lies within the bounds of the former Bishopric of Constance, the arms of which were (you guessed it) Argent a cross Gules.
I would guess this affiliation is more likely to explain the presence of this flag in the arms of this village than romantic legends of the Crusades.
(By the way: the red cross on white has been the flag of Genoa, not of Venice, since the Middle Ages. British flag historians generally believe the English borrowed the design from Genoa after the cult of St. George became popular among English knights during the Crusades.)
Thanks Joe, this is almost certainly the specific origin, as other municipalities in the region contain similar elements.
Interesting point on the English flag…one theory that I find intriguing is that the usage predates the Crusades, and the cult of St. George only served to reinforce an earlier tradition. One early example I have seen given is the papal banner carried by William at Hastings as well as various pennons bearing simple cross devices found in the Bayeux Tapestry. Any thoughts?
Ben Foster;62004 wrote:
Thanks Joe, this is almost certainly the specific origin, as other municipalities in the region contain similar elements.
Interesting point on the English flag…one theory that I find intriguing is that the usage predates the Crusades, and the cult of St. George only served to reinforce an earlier tradition. One early example I have seen given is the papal banner carried by William at Hastings as well as various pennons bearing simple cross devices found in the Bayeux Tapestry. Any thoughts?
I’m sure there were all kinds of banners and such with cross decorations carried at Hastings and lots of other battles during this period and before. Probably some even predating and having nothing to do with Christianity. Note, for example, the Indian shield on the state flag of Oklahoma, which has a number of white "Greek" crosses that are supposed to be representations of stars.
As for the Bayeux tapestry, are you referring to this scene?
http://www.bayeuxtapestry.org.uk/Images/Bayeux/bayeux19.jpg
I ask because a philatelic site I found describes this as the papal banner with the cross of St. George at the masthead of William’s ship (center). Perhaps it is supposed to be a banner, but the makers of the tapestry had no problem depicting flags that look like flags. This looks to me more like a fixed solid cross with a frame around it and another cross on top. It also looks more gold to me than red.
If this is supposed to be a source for the English use of the St. George cross as a national emblem, I’m not convinced.
This is one of the frames I have seen cited.
http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux9.shtml
As with the prior example you noted, Joe, this looks closer to gold than red to my eyes.
I have no doubt that banners etc., bearing crosses were born by armies of English kings prior to the crusades.
I note on the FOTW site that according to W.G. Perrin (in British Flags), usage of the St. George flag was relatively late:
England as a nation state did not exist until the reign of Edward I (1272), all previous kings having been Norman or Anglo-Norman. The earliest reference to the cross of St George as an English emblem (not flag) was in a roll of account relating to the Welsh War of 1277. Although the banner of St George was flown when the castle of Caerlaverock was taken in 1300, it was in company with those of St Edward and St Edmund. Edward the Confessor was "patron saint" of England until 1348 when the greater importance of St George was promoted by the establishment of the Chapel of St George at Windsor. It was not until 1415 that the festival of St George was raised to the position of a "double major feast" and ordered to be observed throughout the Province of the Archbishop of Canterbury with as much solemnity as Christmas Day. St George’s cross did not achieve any sort of status as the national flag until the 16th century, when all other saints’ banners were abandoned during the Reformation. The earliest record of St George’s flag at sea, as an English flag in conjunction with royal banners but no other saintly flags, was 1545.
I do not actually have this book, but will have to buy a copy.
-Ben
Ben Foster;62022 wrote:
This is one of the frames I have seen cited.
http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux9.shtml
As with the prior example you noted, Joe, this looks closer to gold than red to my eyes.
I also note that the event being depicted is William visiting Mont St.-Michel. Also according to FOTW, a red cross on a white shield was apparently associated with St. Michael before it was associated with St. George (which could explain why French knights might have used it in the Crusades).
Ben Foster;61973 wrote:
In Grün schräggekreuzt eine silberne Stange, daran eine silberne Fahne mit durchgehendem rotem Kreuz, und ein silbernes Schwert.
Though this flag is repeatedly referenced in this thread as a Saint George’s Cross, the German blazon does not name it as such but rather describes it as a white flag with a red cross throughout. When is a white flag with a red cross throughout simply that and when is it a Saint George Cross? One would think that the official blazoning would reflect this difference.
Joseph McMillan;62023 wrote:
Also according to FOTW, a red cross on a white shield was apparently associated with St. Michael before it was associated with St. George.
This is correct. I have seen antique Russian icons with the Archangel holding such a shield. The arms of coat-of-arms of Kiev sometimes depicts the Archangel Michael holding a white shield with a red cross (though in modern times a silver shield with a gold cross seems more common). The many princely families descending from the Grand Princes of the Kievan Rus bear this image in their arms, be it a per pale of the field or as a quartering.
David Pritchard;62027 wrote:
Though this flag is repeatedly referenced in this thread as a Saint George’s Cross, the German blazon does not name it as such but rather describes it as a white flag with a red cross throughout. When is a white flag with a red cross throughout simply that and when is it a Saint George Cross? One would think that the official blazoning would reflect this difference.
Your point is well taken. I am reluctant to conclude that this is specifically meant as a St. George’s Cross without further confirmation. I have been trying to research the origins of the arms of Bishopric of Constance, but have not found the answer.
s. michael is given attributed arms that are same as the cross of s. george, and also the trinity as shown.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Sent-Myhell-Armys—Arms-of-St-Michael-ca-1460-thumb.png
i love attributed arms, they are fun 
all the great historical figures, men of legend and stories and tales, even satan has one.
David Pritchard;62029 wrote:
The arms of coat-of-arms of Kiev sometimes depicts the Archangel Michael holding a white shield with a red cross (though in modern times a silver shield with a gold cross seems more common).
I have been to Kyiv several times, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen the arms with a gold cross rather than a red one. Apart from a version that was only done in white and metallic gold.
xanderliptak;62035 wrote:
s. michael is given attributed arms that are same as the cross of s. george, and also the trinity as shown.
It was my understanding that this was not so much the attributed arms of the Trinity, but "the shield of faith", which was a representation of the Trinity in heraldic form.
xanderliptak;62035 wrote:
i love attributed arms, they are fun…even satan has one.
Not that they’ll do him any good! 
Madalch;62038 wrote:
It was my understanding that this was not so much the attributed arms of the Trinity, but "the shield of faith", which was a representation of the Trinity in heraldic form.
sorry, not the best composed sentence. those are not the arms of the trinity, but alternate arms of s. michael that show upon them the trinity.
