Hey everyone

I found this picture of a letter written by Abdul-Mejid II, the last Ottoman caliph. The coat of arms on his letter head is very interesting, but I can not make out many details.

http://www.salihbicakci.com/abdulmecid.jpg

There is a red manteau, and what appears to be a helmet ‘crowning’ it, and two banners on either side, one is the Ottoman flag (gules with a decresecent and star argent) the other one I do not recognize.

So what do you all think? Especially Hassan if you are reading this. :D

Cheers,

The arms do not look at all like those of the Ottoman Sultan, an office which Abdul Mecid II never held of course. Are you certain that the letter actually dates from the 17 month period of 1922-1924 in which he was Caliph or from the period after being deposed in which he was the Chief of the Imperial House of Osman.

THe flag on the right is a mystery to me as it appears to be blue and white. The flag of the Caliph was green and gold. The flag of the Sultan was red with a white tuğra (the Sultanic cypher) within a rayonné star.

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The letter dates from 1938. I meant that the letter was written by Abdul-Mejid II, who was the last Ottoman caliph.

As to the other flag, maybe it is a reference to the flag of one of the "Sixteen Great Turkish Empires", among whom the Göktürk, Hazar, Great Seljuk, and the Great Timur Empires used blue flags, according to FOTW "Turkey: The Sixteen Great Turkish Empires"

Cheers,

I have never seen the coat of arms above. Can we get any bigger picture?  As for the letter, it is dated 17 Teshreen Thani II (i.e. November) 1938.  Either way, it was after the Sultanate and the Caliphate were both abolished.

As for the flag, it is the imperial standard (at sea) of HM Mehmet V, or Mehmet Reshat, Padishah of Turkey.  I can’t make out the whole tughra, Reshat is very clear enough and there was only one Sultan or Padishah with that name.

Hey Hassan.

Unfortunately this is the only size of the picture I could find. The letter is from 1938 as there was a transcript of its text on the website I found it on (not heraldic or anything, it was a blog of someone in Turkey).

The flag you are describing is the one David posted right?

Cheers,

Hey Hassan.

Unfortunately this is the only size of the picture I could find. The letter is from 1938 as there was a transcript of its text on the website I found it on (not heraldic or anything, it was a blog of someone in Turkey).

The flag you are describing is the one David posted right? I thought the Imperial Standard Afloat was this one:

http://flagspot.net/images/t/tr~cinc2.gif

According to National Geographic, 1917.

Cheers,

Mohamed,

Can you post the URL where you found the letter?  The flag you posted is that of the Sultan, but not the imperial standard. I believe, although not sure, it is the flag of the Sultan in His capacity as High Admiral or something like that. I will check, tomorrow.

Either way, here are three images of the Ottoman Imperial "Coat of Arms."  Obviously, they don’t follow western heraldic standards.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/Kelisli/Islamic_Heraldry/Ottoman_State_Coat_of_Arms_brass.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/Kelisli/Islamic_Heraldry/Ottoman_State_Coat_of_Arms.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/Kelisli/Islamic_Heraldry/Osmanli_Coat_of_Arms.jpg

Here is the URL of the image: http://www.salihbicakci.com/abdulmecid.jpg and the URL of the page it was on http://www.salihbicakci.com/2006/10/page/2

Here is something that might interest you as well:http://ia301514.us.archive.org/GnuBook/GnuBookImages.php?zip=/3/items/drawingsofflagsi00grea/drawingsofflagsi00grea_jp2.zip&file=drawingsofflagsi00grea_jp2/drawingsofflagsi00grea_0437.jp2&scale=4

From "Drawings of the flags in use at the present time by various nations (1916)" by the British Admiralty, the entire book is available online ir is extremely interesting: http://www.archive.org/details/drawingsofflagsi00grea

Cheers,

Thanks for this posting, Mohamed.  I think this pretty much confirms what I was saying.  The imperial standard afloat is the one that is raised on the main mast of a vessel.  The other flag with the anchor and the four sunbursts is the flag (here called standard) of the Commander in Chief.

Here we have a larger version of Abdülmecid’s coa:

http://www.antikalar.com/v2/konu/konu0801.asp

Wow! That is very, very interesting! Thanks for posting it.

I think the crown on this cypher is very interesting:

http://www.antikalar.com/v2/images/konu/konu0801-14.jpg

A princely crown with a crescent. I take it this is German influence?

Also, a large version of Abdul-Mejid II’s coat of arms, from that site:

http://www.antikalar.com/v2/images/konu/konu0801-30x.JPG

Cheers,

Kelisli;70354 wrote:

Thanks for this posting, Mohamed. I think this pretty much confirms what I was saying. The imperial standard afloat is the one that is raised on the main mast of a vessel. The other flag with the anchor and the four sunbursts is the flag (here called standard) of the Commander in Chief.

This would be parallel with the nautical flag usage of some other royal families.  The British monarch flies both the flag of the Lord High Admiral and the more familiar royal standard when afloat, as well as the Union Flag.  The German emperor flew the imperial standard and, when emphasizing his role as supreme commander of the navy, the emperor’s broad pennant.

So as not to hijack this thread, I’ll post some images of some of these flags in a new thread—many of them have very beautiful heraldic content.

Thank you, Joe. This is exactly what I was talking about, except I am not as well versed in vexillology Mohamed had nice images of the Egyptian royal standard afloat and ashore (with heraldic content). Perhaps he can add them to that thread you will start.

Jochen, thank you for the wonderful link. Some amazing letterhead images.

Good observation, Mohamed.  Yes, there was definitely some Germanic influence in the Ottoman Court.  The Ottoman court was very closely tied to the Austro-Hungarian and German courts.

The arms of Caliph Abdulmecid II remind me of the French restoration arms or those of Ethiopia!  They are semi heraldic, at best.

Again, thanks for sharing.

David,

In regards to the flag and standard on either side of the arms, the one on the dexter side is the national flag of Turkey, the sinister side shows a green standard with the traditional Ottoman sun burst (one of the emblems of the Ottoman Caliphate).  I believe that is one of the standards of the Caliph.

You can also see that on either side of the manteau, there is a tugh or horse tail standard, a traditional Ottoman emblem.  Under the manteau from top to bottom are:

1. The motto: "el Mustanid be-tevikat ir-Rabbaneya." Hard to translate, but the closest it come to is : He who depends on the divine aide for success, or something along those lines.

2. Scales of justice resting on a Koran and the codes of law enacted by Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent down to the Imperial laws and edicts guaranteeing minorities rights within Ottoman lands (enacted by Sultan Mahmud II and his son Sultan Abdulmecid I.

3. The dates are 699 and 1351 AH.  The first date coincides with the year 1299 AD (the founding of the Ottoman imperial dynasty and the Ottoman Empire).  The date 1351 AH coincides with the year 1932 AD. I am not certain of the significance of that year.

4. The two sheathed sabers, I believe symbolize the Ottoman Caliphate and Empire.  The Ottoman Sultans were never crowned.  Instead there was a girding ceremony as opposed to a coronation ceremony.  The Sultan was girded with the sword of Osman (an early Moslem Caliph, not the founder of the dynasty).

Kelisli;70362 wrote:

4. The two sheathed sabers, I believe symbolize the Ottoman Caliphate and Empire.  The Ottoman Sultans were never crowned.  Instead there was a girding ceremony as opposed to a coronation ceremony.  The Sultan was girded with the sword of Osman (an early Moslem Caliph, not the founder of the dynasty).

Here is a video of the ‘coronation’ of Mohamed VI the last Ottoman Sultan, which was filmed in 1918: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5503456006695752116&hl=en

Cheers,

Thanks Mohamed for posting this video. This is a quick clip of the enthronement at Topkapi palace. This took place after the girding. It was called a coronation, however, the Ottoman Sultans were never crowned, in the true sense of the word.