we just elected our first minister general, what are the heraldric custom for a franciscan superior, would it be the same as an abbot or is there some other custom
A black galero with 12 tassels (1,2,3 on each side) are assigned to generals of orders
A black galero with 6 tassels (1,2 on each side) are assigned to provosts, mitred abbots, and provincial superiors of orders
A black galero with 2 tassels (1 on each side) are assigned to local superiors (prior guardian, and rector)
I’m sorry Stephen, but that’s incorrect. Superiors General and Superiors Provincial of Exempt Religious Orders use a black galero with black cords and 12 tassels. Abbots use the same galero as this.
Superiors General and Provincial of Non-Exempt Religious Orders use the same hat as any ordinary superior (i.e. prior, provost, rector). Namely, a black galero with black cords and 4 tassels (two penadant on either side)
(see: Heraldry in the Catholic Church by Bruno Heim, page 117.)
friarbrett;94909 wrote:
we just elected our first minister general, what are the heraldric custom for a franciscan superior, would it be the same as an abbot or is there some other custom
He may use the shield and motto surmounted by a black galero that has black cords and 12 black tassels. The galero, cords and tassels are black regardless of the color of the habit. There are no other external ornaments permitted in his coat of arms.
gselvester;94914 wrote:
I’m sorry Stephen, but that’s incorrect.
My information may have been out-of-date :oops:
Sorry for showing my ignorance, but are Anglican Rite Old Catholics (I think that’s what Friar Brett said he is) governed by Roman heraldic usage?
Joseph McMillan;94925 wrote:
Sorry for showing my ignorance, but are Anglican Rite Old Catholics (I think that’s what Friar Brett said he is) governed by Roman heraldic usage?
I’ll let Friar Brett speak for himself - but it doesn’t look like the "Anglican Rite Old Catholic Church" is in communion with Rome.
Joseph McMillan;94925 wrote:
Sorry for showing my ignorance, but are Anglican Rite Old Catholics (I think that’s what Friar Brett said he is) governed by Roman heraldic usage?
How are you defining "governed"?
gselvester;94929 wrote:
How are you defining "governed"?
Bound to follow or obey, I guess. I know there are former Anglican groups that are now becoming affiliated with Rome and assume that these groups’ heraldic usages would follow the norms established by Rome. What I meant was, is this one of those groups? If not, would they more appropriate follow the norms followed by Anglican Franciscans, if there are any?
The Roman Church has, by far, the most developed "system" (for lack of a better word) of heraldry and so many look to it as the standard. This is true even if they are not Roman Catholics themselves, such as Old Catholics. The use of an Anglican Rite doesn’t make them Anglicans. There are Catholics who also use rites other than the Latin rite but that does not mean they aren’t Catholics. In addition, while Franciscans exist in various Christian communities they all stem from the original Franciscans who are, obviously, Roman Catholic. My point being that as Old Catholics and as Franciscans they have closer ties to Roman Catholicism than with Anglicanism and so it would be natural for them to look more to Roman Catholic heraldic usage than any other. In addition, there is no system for Anglicans. Rather, the Church of England has devised a system of ecclesiastical heraldry which is, by and large, followed by many other parts of the Anglican Communion but that CofE system makes no provision for the arms of Religious Superiors other than abbots. Since they have the use of pontificals and Franciscans of any kind do not they couldn’t follow the custom for abbots and there is nothing else in so-called "Anglican heraldry" that would provide for the arms of a Superior General. So, all other things to one side the Roman Catholic heraldic tradition would be the best to follow insofar as it provides more for the coats of arms of many other prelates and officials than any other.
Thank you for this clear exposition.
gselvester;94933 wrote:
The Roman Church has, by far, the most developed "system" (for lack of a better word) of heraldry and so many look to it as the standard. *** So, all other things to one side the Roman Catholic heraldic tradition would be the best to follow insofar as it provides more for the coats of arms of many other prelates and officials than any other.
Makes perfect sense; thanks.
david;94935 wrote:
Thank you for this clear exposition.
I often find the complexities of ecclesiastical heraldry to be baffling. Thank you Fr. Guy for your clear and concise explanations.
gselvester;94933 wrote:
The Roman Church has, by far, the most developed "system" (for lack of a better word) of heraldry and so many look to it as the standard. This is true even if they are not Roman Catholics themselves, such as Old Catholics. The use of an Anglican Rite doesn’t make them Anglicans. There are Catholics who also use rites other than the Latin rite but that does not mean they aren’t Catholics. In addition, while Franciscans exist in various Christian communities they all stem from the original Franciscans who are, obviously, Roman Catholic. My point being that as Old Catholics and as Franciscans they have closer ties to Roman Catholicism than with Anglicanism and so it would be natural for them to look more to Roman Catholic heraldic usage than any other. In addition, there is no system for Anglicans. Rather, the Church of England has devised a system of ecclesiastical heraldry which is, by and large, followed by many other parts of the Anglican Communion but that CofE system makes no provision for the arms of Religious Superiors other than abbots. Since they have the use of pontificals and Franciscans of any kind do not they couldn’t follow the custom for abbots and there is nothing else in so-called "Anglican heraldry" that would provide for the arms of a Superior General. So, all other things to one side the Roman Catholic heraldic tradition would be the best to follow insofar as it provides more for the coats of arms of many other prelates and officials than any other.
I agree with Fr. Guy, while our communion does have its own rules governing heraldry, they do not cover religious orders or superiors (except abbots & abbeys), in all other areas we differ to the Holy See, as for the communion question we are not in corporate communion with Rome, but do voluntarily submit to the holy see on matters of doctrine (faith & morals), we differ mostly in matters of discipline & government, our liturgy is the Anglican Missal and the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite.
another quick question though, would the arms be marshalled with the arms of the order or would they stand alone, I wasnt sure seeing as the MG serves for a set term
They may be impaled with the arms of the order but not permanently. Including the arms of the order in his achievement is really on a pro hac vice basis and his arms would have to be modified again once his term of office was ended.