To heraldic artists,

I’m curious; what is the most unusual charge a client has ever asked you to put on their shield or crest and how did you handle it? Of course, I understand if you don’t want to say as you might not want to embarrass anyone—private communications in good faith and so on. But maybe you have seen an unusual design done by someone else?

I read an article where an heraldic artist said that what must have been a physician of gastroenterology once twisted his arm into having a human colon painted onto his shield. The result apparently turned out to be an ugly design resembling “an earthworm”. But the client was happy. I didn’t get to see what it looked like.

What do you typically tell clients when they have odd requests for a new design that you don’t think will work well?

I’m no heraldic artist but here are a few.

A Tudor doctor (who made a great reputation by examination of urine) was granted a crest of "a piss-pot in a basket"

The arms of Sir William Herschel, the astronomer, contain his famous 40 foot telescope.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Herschel_40_foot.jpg

Never emblazoned as it is actually blazoned (because we all know its just a 17th century variant spelling) but Lyon Register contains a crest with the Wodehousian "a mount semee of aunts".

The devil in me has to ask whether the L in your surname is pronounced and whether you’re thinking of Argent three blood puddings Sable (Boudin noir).

:D

James

Good question. Sadly my step-grandfather’s ancestors were not Acadian; though I sometimes wallow in the ambiguity that the name creates. Nevertheless, the L is pronounced. The truth is his descendants came from Warwickshire originally as Bowldinge and the name became Bouldinge or Boulding by the time they reached the Chesapeake in the 17th Century. It must have then turned into the dangling participle of Bouldin’ during that time.

I did find arms of a George F Bolding from Warwickshire of the late 19th Century (no relation to me). His shield featured bowls, which I assume was a pun on his surname. There is an image of them in The Art of Heraldry: An Encyclopaedia of Armory by Arthur Charles Fox-Davies. I’d probably be content with bowls. NOT piss-pots though! That is hysterical. Thanks for that information.

Heraldically irreproachable, but possibly too low for your taste, canting arms would be:

[Colour] three dented bowls [metal].

I am, of course, being facetious, but there are a whole heap of arms, especially canting arms, that are based on very bad puns.

Additional to the ones that I mentioned earlier, the English family of Dodge bear as part of their arms "a woman’s breast distilling milk" - the pun being on "dug".

What I’m trying to say is to not worry about "odd" designs. Pretty much everything under the sun has ended up on a coat of arms, so don’t worry if you think you have an odd idea.

A good general rule for arms is to keep them simple, and to keep the elements (reasonably) distinctive. If something requires an expert or a reference book for the lay person to distinguish it from something else, it’s probably not good heraldry, even if it is within the rules.

Of course, for detailed design advice you have to go to the members only area.

James

I apologize James; I didn’t mean to give the impression that I was seeking an odd design for myself. I had already decided to completely leave the creative design of my arms up to the experts with no interference from me other than to request a few references to this or that (though with as many children as I have, dented bowls pretty much sums it up). So we’ll see what comes of it.

I just am fairly new and I genuinely enjoy hearing about or seeing examples of odd designs; like those of the colon doctor or the Tudor doctor and his "lab work". The canting arms of Dodge sounds awful.

The Dodge arms sound worse than they looked, at least as the metal emblem on Dodge automobiles - the punning element was just a roundle with a spot in the middle, which almost no one identified as a breast.  I don’t recall seeing that emblem in years, except on older cars (antiques by now).  But I suspect it was "ignorance is bliss" with the emblem abandoned when someone finally told Chrysler Corp what is was

Michael F. McCartney;104208 wrote:

The Dodge arms sound worse than they looked, at least as the metal emblem on Dodge automobiles - the punning element was just a roundle with a spot in the middle, which almost no one identified as a breast. I don’t recall seeing that emblem in years, except on older cars (antiques by now). But I suspect it was "ignorance is bliss" with the emblem abandoned when someone finally told Chrysler Corp what is was

very interesting . . . . . thx!  :D

Sounds a bit like a Detroit version of "feathers" - my family drove all three at different times but I never caught on to the hierarchy.

http://cartype.com/pics/5841/small/dodge_coronet_shield_emblem_49.jpg

Dodge Coronet

More automobile heraldry.

A few more of the clearly heraldic type:

http://cartype.com/pics/5848/small/barris_customs_shield_emblem.jpg

Barris

http://cartype.com/pics/5847/small/cord_shield_2.jpg

Cord

http://cartype.com/pics/1612/small/packard_caribbean_shield.jpg

Packard Caribbean

—Guy

Thanks for the link - an interesting mix, from a few "innovative" eyesores to armorial eye candy!

The newer Peugeot lions - especially the lion’s head version - are particularly beautiful; the older ones not so much.  The oldest (?) version with the billety field is interesting, presumably the arms of either the founder of the company or the town where it started?

While not trying to turn this into an exploration of mammaric (?) charges in heraldry, I nevertheless thought of this thread again when I found something odd along the same lines. I was muscling my way through Volume III of Heraldario español, europeo y Americano by Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent (courtesy of Sebastian Nelson’s links posted on the State-Level Heraldic Authority thread) when I came across something pretty unpleasant to have on one’s shield on page 130. It was recorded in Pamplona by the Chronista as being arms of someone with the surname, Garachana:

En oro, dos pechos, de gules, chorreando sangre y puestos en faja

“Or, two breasts, gules, dripping blood and…” (the rest I assume describes their positioning in blazon terms). Beside this description was a crude rendering that was far more literal a depiction than the figurative one on the Dodge Arms. I wonder what the story was there.

Of the other arms, there were a fair amount of Moor’s heads, which I suppose makes sense given the historic context. I noticed the arms of Valle de Matamoros with its single severed head of a Moorish person. Until now, the meaning of the name of the Valle de Matamoros (not to mention that of the Matamoros in Tamaulipas, Mexico) had never occurred to me. Naturally I looked up Valle de Matamoros and I now see that the arms have been changed to something more relevant to the present day. Not to digress, but I also read an online essay by a late Canadian journalist named Halvor Moorshead on his experiences in receiving arms from the Canadian Heraldic Authority. The notion of canting arms never once entered the narrative.

I have to say that I have become particularly interested in heraldry in the Americas from 1492 to 1821. I don’t suppose someone can recommend a book on the subject, whether it be Jamestown or Creole settlers…it’s all interesting to me. Or is this really a deep-dive subject of primary source study? I’ve seen the thread topics, but a comprehensive publication would be good too. I’d definitely buy and recommend the book if someone were to write it, though I couldn’t see it breaking out of the AHA sphere and hitting shelves. But who knows?

Quote:

I have to say that I have become particularly interested in heraldry in the Americas from 1492 to 1821. I don’t suppose someone can recommend a book on the subjec

Hi!  I’d recommend Nobiliario de conquistadores de Indias by Antonio Paz y Meliá:https://books.google.com/books?id=F_MCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nobiliario+de+conquistadores+de+Indias&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tL3aVKSQEYHWoATisYLYBQ&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The color illustrations at the back are fairly accurate representations of the original grants.

See also the Basic Heraldic Bookshelf link on our Homepage.  Zieber’s Heraldry in America, while dated, is a pretty good survey of arms used in the US pre- and post-independence, primarily in English-speaking context.  Also linked to the home page are a roll of early American arms, a series of essays re: the use of arms by a number of American Presidents; and our Guidelines for use of arms by Americans.

There will be a snap quiz in the morning

Sebastian,

Thanks for the link and the recommendation.

Michael,

Thanks as well. I ordered one on Amazon yesterday via the Home Page link. It was Slater’s 2002 Complete Book of Heraldry (only because it was the most recent). I saw there were a few under the American Heraldry topic line, but I wasn’t sure which would be best. I’ll take a look at the one you recommended.

Two questions regarding the Presidential Arms piece: what did Nixon’s look like? LBJ had his arms designed by the American College of Heraldry and Arms but didn’t Nixon as well? I think I like the Roosevelt and Eisenhower arms the best.

Also, I’m curious about the Josiah Bartlett Arms. There are two sets described there. Any consensus on which are correct?

I’ve never been able to find Nixon’s, and haven’t gotten around to contacting the Nixon library to have them dig the documents out.

I wouldn’t say that Johnson and Nixon "had their arms designed by the ACH&A," because that implies that getting the arms was their own initiative.  The "grants" to them were essentially efforts by the ACH&A to garner publicity for itself.  If so, it didn’t do them much good, since the organization was defunct within about a year of Nixon’s taking office.

As you probably know, the present day ACH has no connection with the group that designed Johnson’s and Nixon’s arms.