Heraldry for my new Baby: musing on cadency

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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15 February 2016 11:10
 

Hello Ladies and Gentleman,

So my dear wife, Maria, is pregnant with our first child, which (obviously) has put me in a heraldic frame of mind. I’ve been reading about and musing on methods of inheritance and cadency. To be honest, I’m not loving any of the traditional approaches. I was hoping that I might post some of my notions and ideas here and get some feedback from the more experienced folks.

The original plan was to pass on an undifferenced shield and, when the tyke was old enough to express his/her own preference, have them pick a unique crest. For a variety of reasons, mostly due to a preference not to pass on overt religious symbols, I’ve been leaning toward making some changes.

 

What I’ve been thinking recently is to combine some elements of my coat of arms with my wife’s to create a new shield altogether. So far as I’ve seen in my research this method doesn’t seem to have any proponents, at least in a formal way, in reality. But, I figure that it reinforces the the spirit of one-man-one-shield while still representing the family ties that have become so important to users of heraldry in the modern era.

 

In any case, here are some of the things I’ve come up with.

 

My wife and I with my preferred version of the baby’s shield

My wife and I with her preferred version of the baby’s shield

Some other variations on the same theme

For completeness, An undifferenced shield and with a label of three.

 

I would love any reactions, either to the notion of creating a new shield for my progeny rather than following one of the more traditional methods of cadency. Or to the design ideas I’ve put forward thus far.

 

Cheers!

 
Holcombe Thomas
 
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Holcombe Thomas
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15 February 2016 12:11
 

Congratulations!  I rather like your preferred version of the shield, but, of course, my vote is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Best wishes to you and your wife!

 

Holcombe

 
Iain Boyd
 
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Iain Boyd
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15 February 2016 16:42
 

Dear Everett,

Congratulations.

 

Very interesting thoughts. As a new coat of arms I have to say that I prefer your first version.

 

However, may I make a suggestion?

 

Rather than devise new arms, why not use a version of your own arms with some minor standard difference until your child is old enough to choose for himself/herself.

 

You may find that as he/she gets older and more knowledgeable about heraldry he/she may prefer to show his/her relationship within the family directly or again may prefer the idea of ‘one man one coat’.

 

What ever your decision enjoy your child.

 

Regards,

 

Iain Boyd

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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15 February 2016 19:22
 

Congrats!  First, I think you’re welcome to wait until the tyke is of an age - but Quartered?

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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15 February 2016 21:33
 

After some design review with the Mrs. tonight we’ve made some modifications to what we’re thinking.

here are the current thoughts. She still likes the chevron vert rather the gules and just per-chevron, dropping the per pale entirely (i.e., the left two collums of the middle row) but we’re still undecided.


Iain Boyd;105450 wrote:

Dear Everett,

Congratulations.

 

Very interesting thoughts. As a new coat of arms I have to say that I prefer your first version.

 

However, may I make a suggestion?

 

Rather than devise new arms, why not use a version of your own arms with some minor standard difference until your child is old enough to choose for himself/herself.

 

You may find that as he/she gets older and more knowledgeable about heraldry he/she may prefer to show his/her relationship within the family directly or again may prefer the idea of ‘one man one coat’.


But that would take all the fun out of playing herald wink


Quote:

What ever your decision enjoy your child.

 


That part is definitely in the plans.

 


Kathy McClurg;105451 wrote:

Congrats!  First, I think you’re welcome to wait until the tyke is of an age - but Quartered?


We thought of this… but I’m not really a fan, i find that quartered shields quickly get way too busy.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 February 2016 01:49
 

Two questions:

* boy or girl? (just curious - unless you’re a fan of lozenges for ladies, doesn’t matter heraldically)

 

* what surname will he/she bear? - yours? your wife’s? both hyphenated? & if the latter, in what order?  (since the primary function of arms, other than eye candy, is identification, and arms are by nature heritable within a family, this question is key.)

 

My preference, FWIW, is no cadency within a family, though each family is free to choose; but certainly no change in the basic arms between generations.

 

Any of the numerous variations you and your wife have considered, standing alone, ate attractive and would be quite suitable as a new design for an individual or family with no existing arms.  But changing the basic design (unless for some reason you want to adopt the new design for all of you in place of your current arms) essentially says, in pictorial form, that he or she is not your child.  I very much doubt that’s your intention!

 

The "one man, one coat" principal was common in some historical times and places, but rare or missing in many others; and in most places nowadays cadency is optional or absent.  But it seldom if ever AFAIK implied totally different basic arms between siblings or generations within the same family. The basic arms, with or without cadency, served and still serve to unite families, not slice and dice.  And where cadency was & is used, it is generally some relatively minor addition (label, crescent, star etc., or various bordures) or perhaps a relatively minor modification e.g. varying a partition line or the edges of a charge; or perhaps varying the crest; but all keeping the same basic pattern identifying them all as members of the same family.

 

You and your wife are of course free to blaze a new path, but for the reasons cited, not recommended.

 

And once the new kid arrives, you will both be too busy keeping up to bother changing arms!

 

Note: these comments don’t address various ways to marshal your two existing arms, but rather than try to cover every variation, better I think to await your answer to the name questions above and go from there.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 February 2016 01:57
 

Two questions:

* boy or girl? (just curious - unless you’re a fan of lozenges for ladies, doesn’t matter heraldically)

 

* what surname will he/she bear? - yours? your wife’s? both hyphenated? & if the latter, in what order?  (since the primary function of arms, other than eye candy, is identification, and arms are by nature heritable within a family, this question is key.)

 

My preference, FWIW, is no cadency within a family, though each family is free to choose; but certainly no change in the basic arms between generations.

 

Any of the numerous variations you and your wife have considered, standing alone, ate attractive and would be quite suitable as a new design for an individual or family with no existing arms.  But changing the basic design (unless for some reason you want to adopt the new design for all of you in place of your current arms) essentially says, in pictorial form, that he or she is not your child.  I very much doubt that’s your intention!

 

The "one man, one coat" principal was common in some historical times and places, but rare or missing in many others; and in most places nowadays cadency is optional or absent.  But it seldom if ever AFAIK implied totally different basic arms between siblings or generations within the same family. The basic arms, with or without cadency, served and still serve to unite families, not slice and dice.  And where cadency was & is used, it is generally some relatively minor addition (label, crescent, star etc., or various bordures) or perhaps a relatively minor modification e.g. varying a partition line or the edges of a charge; or perhaps varying the crest; but all keeping the same basic pattern identifying them all as members of the same family.

 

You and your wife are of course free to blaze a new path, but for the reasons cited, not recommended.

 

And once the new kid arrives, you will both be too busy keeping up to bother changing arms!

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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16 February 2016 11:08
 

Michael F. McCartney;105453 wrote:

Two questions:

* boy or girl? (just curious - unless you’re a fan of lozenges for ladies, doesn’t matter heraldically)


At this point we do not know. We plan to find out but it’s currently a bit too early. As far as lozenges go, I don’t object to them on principle but I find that they frequently just look bad… charges get scrunched and mangled to fit into spaces they weren’t meant to…

 

That being said, my wife has become fond of this rendering of her arms.


Michael F. McCartney;105454 wrote:

* what surname will he/she bear? - yours? your wife’s? both hyphenated? & if the latter, in what order?  (since the primary function of arms, other than eye candy, is identification, and arms are by nature heritable within a family, this question is key.)


The kiddo will have my last name, Smith. My wife is Mexican and there was some discussion of her keeping her Mexican naming tradition and passing it down to the children but for a variety of family drama reasons she decided against doing that. (tangent, my wife is Maria Smith, poor girl complains that her name is boring in two languages)


Quote:

My preference, FWIW, is no cadency within a family, though each family is free to choose; but certainly no change in the basic arms between generations.


As a general rule I agree with this notion, in fact when I first got bit by the heraldry bug I had put together coats for my father and grandfather that had the same shield but different crests. While my grandfather never showed much interest, my father is very fond of his, especially with the rendering by Michael Swanson I commissioned for him some years ago.

 

That being said. When I first adopted my arms I was much more overtly religious. As I have grown and changed spirituality and philosophy has evolved quite a lot and I now consider myself to be a Secular Humanist. While I have come to accept the design of my shield as representative of myself I am hesitant to pass on such an overtly religious symbol.


Quote:

But changing the basic design (unless for some reason you want to adopt the new design for all of you in place of your current arms) essentially says, in pictorial form, that he or she is not your child.  I very much doubt that’s your intention!


You’re right, this absolutely is not my intention. But one thing I have noticed about heraldry in general, it strongly favors the male line for purposes of inheritance (true enough there is a longer historical conversation that could be had about all the other areas that this is true… but another place and time). With the exception of impaling the two shields (which shows marriage, not inheritance), quartering (which gets crazy quickly), and shields in pretence (which has unpleasant connotations) there aren’t many ways to really reflect both sides of the family in a coat of arms.

 

One notion I’ve been batting around is to reflect my wife in the crest. Maybe a beast of some description holding a chevron nebuly… I’m not sure just yet.


Quote:

And once the new kid arrives, you will both be too busy keeping up to bother changing arms!


Oh I have no doubt, perhaps that’s why I’m playing the herald now. I wont get much of a chance later on.

 

Thank you very much for your input Michael.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 February 2016 16:58
 

He/she will be the fourth generation with arms representing her lineage; surely that’s a family identity and tradition (or at least a long-standing habit! wink ) worth keeping!

Since changing crests has been part of your Smith practice, doing the same for the newest generation makes sense; and as you say, could easily include your wife’s shield.  As a suggestion, if it’s a girl, you might use the blue-ribbon version favored by your wife; for a boy, maybe without the ribbon since it would suggest a girl; or maybe for a boy, use Maria’s arms on a shield (less girly) but maybe hanging from a blue ribbon (no bow) from the neck or shoulders if whatever crest animal you choose.

 

Just suggestions, of course!

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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16 February 2016 18:25
 

Michael F. McCartney;105456 wrote:

He/she will be the fourth generation with arms representing her lineage; surely that’s a family identity and tradition (or at least a long-standing habit! wink ) worth keeping!

Since changing crests has been part of your Smith practice, doing the same for the newest generation makes sense; and as you say, could easily include your wife’s shield.  As a suggestion, if it’s a girl, you might use the blue-ribbon version favored by your wife; for a boy, maybe without the ribbon since it would suggest a girl; or maybe for a boy, use Maria’s arms on a shield (less girly) but maybe hanging from a blue ribbon (no bow) from the neck or shoulders if whatever crest animal you choose.

 

Just suggestions, of course!


You really are making a lot of sense. I need to ruminate some but I think you’re right. My instinct before was to maintain the shield but adapt the crest, I should run with that. Now I need to decide if I will choose or if I will let the tyke choose the nature of the crest.

 

I like your suggestions for incorporating the wife’s shield into the crest. I will have to experiment with some variations.

 

Thank you for your wisdom. We’ll see what we come up with.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ayFoE1m.png

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 February 2016 20:40
 

Thanks! - but less "wisdom" than osmosis from long participation here and elsewhere.

Just had a thought viewing your shield emblazonment - not a change in your arms, just a possible bit of fun artistic license for display of your kid’s arms while still young.  Your boar’s Head is commendably fierce, but for the kid you could tone that down, perhaps almost to the Disney three little pigs or Miss Piggy level - cute piglet or pig with "baby" tusks smile )

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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16 February 2016 21:41
 

Michael F. McCartney;105458 wrote:

Just had a thought viewing your shield emblazonment - not a change in your arms, just a possible bit of fun artistic license for display of your kid’s arms while still young.  Your boar’s Head is commendably fierce, but for the kid you could tone that down, perhaps almost to the Disney three little pigs or Miss Piggy level - cute piglet or pig with "baby" tusks wink  When he/she is old enough to no longer want to be a baby, you can "age"  his/her piggy appropriately.


Okay that’s clever I like that a lot. There is only one wrinkle:

 

The wife isn’t a fan of the boar at all… I picked it because Everett -> Eberhard -> Strong boar… The kid, if male, won’t be named Everett (despite my vigorous protest). She’s campaigning for some other animal for the tyke… Annoyingly the charges that would be most closely associated with the names we have planned are a salmon or a torture device…

 

We’ll see what happens but really, thank you for your advice. I bought a new membership I hope to be more active in the member section once my application has been review.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 February 2016 22:39
 

Well, if the only change is swapping out the boar for a bunny or bird or whatever, leaving the rest intact, I suppose that would meet both her piggy-phobia smile and your desire for family continuity.

Or maybe an anvil or horseshoe or some such?  Ah well, let Maria decide - happy wife, happy life!

 
QuiQuog
 
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17 February 2016 12:33
 

Michael F. McCartney;105458 wrote:

Just had a thought viewing your shield emblazonment - not a change in your arms, just a possible bit of fun artistic license for display of your kid’s arms while still young.  Your boar’s Head is commendably fierce, but for the kid you could tone that down, perhaps almost to the Disney three little pigs or Miss Piggy level - cute piglet or pig with "baby" tusks smile

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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18 February 2016 03:39
 

smile

Hope your wife agrees!

 
Claus K Berntsen
 
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Claus K Berntsen
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19 February 2016 20:58
 

ESmith;105455 wrote:

When I first adopted my arms I was much more overtly religious. As I have grown and changed spirituality and philosophy has evolved quite a lot and I now consider myself to be a Secular Humanist. While I have come to accept the design of my shield as representative of myself I am hesitant to pass on such an overtly religious symbol.

Sometimes a cross is just a cross, to paraphrase Freud… It really doesn’t have to seen as "an overtly religious symbol".