http://images.geraldika.ru/185/g2081_mstislavl_city.gif
This is interesting (arms of Mstislavl, Belarus).
Arms emerging from clouds are not particularly rare in Eastern European heraldry.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Et-Parnu_coa.svg/356px-Et-Parnu_coa.svg.png
The arms of the city of Pärnu, Estonia.
Nor in early US vexillology:
http://www.fotw.net/images/u/us-bed.gif
Flag of the Bedford (Mass.) Minutemen
Joseph McMillan wrote:
Nor in early US vexillology:
http://www.fotw.net/images/u/us-bed.gif
Flag of the Bedford (Mass.) Minutemen
Wow; this is really interesting (in particular as I formerly lived in MA). Thanks for posting it.
Daniel C. Boyer wrote:
http://images.geraldika.ru/185/g2081_mstislavl_city.gif
This is interesting (arms of Mstislavl, Belarus).
Historical note: these strikingly beautiful arms were granted in 1634 to the city of Mstislavl while it was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Isn’t that an example of metal on metal?
Trent wrote:
Isn’t that an example of metal on metal?
I was just thinking that! :p
Trent wrote:
Isn’t that an example of metal on metal?
Yes, and it could have been avoided so easily while maintaining substantially the same effect; if the hand had been proper or carnation it could have been vambraced argent and issuing from clouds argent with no problem.
Some would argue that there is no tincture violation if all the charges are simply blazoned as proper: a cloud proper would be white and the armor on the hand and the sword that it’s holding could all be polished steel, depicted as argent.
To me, this would be a weasely way out of a tincture violation, but then my view of the tincture rule is different from Daniel’s.
Joseph McMillan wrote:
Some would argue that there is no tincture violation if all the charges are simply blazoned as proper: a cloud proper would be white and the armor on the hand and the sword that it’s holding could all be polished steel, depicted as argent.
To me, this would be a weasely way out of a tincture violation, but then my view of the tincture rule is different from Daniel’s.
The arm and sword appear to be gray, or cendrée, (at least to my eyes) in that they are not white like the clouds. So maybe as Joe says, this doesn’t violate the letter of the tincture rules, though perhaps the spirit.
Joseph McMillan wrote:
Some would argue that there is no tincture violation if all the charges are simply blazoned as proper: a cloud proper would be white and the armor on the hand and the sword that it’s holding could all be polished steel, depicted as argent.
To me, this would be a weasely way out of a tincture violation, but then my view of the tincture rule is different from Daniel’s.
The whole is shown as white, but if the charges were all blazoned as proper, what you were saying would be completely true. It’s not a case of "some would argue"—it’s as simple as that. There’s no question of multiple views of the tincture rule. The way out may or may not be "weasely" (it can sometimes create effects that, practically speaking, are lacking in contrast and thus to be deprecated from a practical view, but practical views don’t have anything to do with "colour on colour" or "metal on metal") but it is a way out, period. Proper is neither a colour nor a metal, period—this is simply a fact and numerous things about the way it operates and the way that heraldry and blazon operate as a whole conclusively prove this. Therefore there cannot be any question of a violation when a non-colour is placed on a colour, or a non-metal is placed on a metal, period. "Views" simply don’t enter into it.
arriano wrote:
The arm and sword appear to be gray, or cendrée, (at least to my eyes) in that they are not white like the clouds. So maybe as Joe says, this doesn’t violate the letter of the tincture rules, though perhaps the spirit.
Grey is kind of questionable as a heraldic colour, I think—I’m not really sure how the unusual grisatre should be depicted, but cendrée (as the name suggests) I think any case, at least ideally, should be a darker grey than that shown, which is practically white (I’m aware that there is a possibility that monitor display differences may be accounting for some of this).
Daniel C. Boyer wrote:
"Views" simply don’t enter into it.
That’s your view.
Deleted by author.
