Perhaps the association of the horsehead shield with Catholicism, at least when viewed from this side of the Atlantic, is that we’re most accustomed to seeing it used with the arms of the Popes.  But I agree with Mike and Guy that it’s really more Italian specifically than Catholic generally.

edited by member

reposted in the place it was supossed to be after the bug worked out of our system…

—-

Maybe that’s true… but Heim’s work is loaded full of these arms. And that work is probably 98% Catholic arms of one stripe or another. There are the occasional secular arms of persons or Anglican and Orthodox arms et al, but mostly it is Catholic men, women, and corporations.

That together with it being used so much by the popes (as referenced by Heim in the stained glass windows of the ‘pope’s Pius’ - I think he called it the Pius window…have to check - along with John XXIII, Paul VI during Heim’s lifetime, to which Heim designed John XXIII’s arms and it begins to look very Catholic.

There may in fact be non-Catholic arms in Italy like this. I haven’t seen any of them in the books I’ve digested, but I’d like to see some copies of them if there are any out there.

I certainly haven’t seen it in any Anglican (English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, American), Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc arms. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exists. It just means that when I’ve seen it used it has always been Catholic (note: Heim also has the arms of an Oriental [Eastern] Catholic bishop using them).

That’s why I presume (a dangerous thing I know) it is basically a Catholic thing – more custom than definitive mind you. I don’t, however think it is something that is, or should be, strictly speaking Catholic only. If a Protestant minister of whatever stripe asked me to do his arms on them I would… I just couldn’t do the galero in good conscience (not including the Anglican hats and I presume since there is a relatively formal ‘communion’ of sorts between the Lutherans and the Episcopalians the Lutherans as well, but I’d have to ask an expert on this like Fr. Guy).

Well, I’ll chime in again: as I understand it, the horse-head shield was actually based on the armor that was used on the head of a war horse. It became fairly popular in Italian arms, but I’m away from my books right now so I can’t tell you when it achieved its popularity. But it is fairly common in Italian arms (secular and ecclesiastical) and as it isn’t a shield per se, I can see why it was readily adopted by the Church (for the same reasons they don’t use helms). Certainly it is not exclusively Catholic, but is, as has been pointed out, widely used within the Church.

I see no problem with an artist attributing a certain Catholic-ness (or perhaps, Roman-ness) to the horse head shield, but also remember that it is a shape often used in Italian secular heraldry as well.

<Warning: The following statements are from a medieval armor "nut" (fanatic being too strong a word)>
Patrick Williams wrote:

as I understand it, the horse-head shield was actually based on the armor that was used on the head of a war horse.

Well, yes and no. Donnchadh’s representations of Frs. Sylvester and Archer’s arms are based on the armor used on a horse’s head, however it is technically incorrect to call it a horse-head shield. Horse armor has it’s own nomenclature that is separate and distinct from armor designed for human use. The particular piece of armor in question is called a "chanfron" and protects the horse’s face. It is attached to another piece of head armor called the "crinet" which runs down the back of the horse’s neck. This was then attached to the "peytral" which protected the horse’s chest. Originally, all of this may have been covered by the horse’s "trapper", a cloth covering the horse head to hoof and bearing the rider’s arms. Later, the trapper was removed and the chanfron was sometimes painted with the rider’s arms or, alternatively, decorated with ornate (and structural) fluting or (depending on the wealth of the owner) etchings and engravings.

I have seen the chanfron used in other achievements of arms, but was unaware that it had any significance related to the Roman Catholic Church or to Italy, specifically. Thank you all for the education. :D

Take care,

And thank you, Philip…I couldn’t get the word chanfron out of brain this morning!

Good morning Mr. Phelps.  Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to obtain a modern-made chanfron/chamfron and paint Fr. Guy’s and Fr. Archer’s arms upon it.  This tape will self-destruct in five seconds.

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/dc-533.jpg

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Decorative_Horse_Armour.html

Polyurethane chamfron $165.

Cheers,

—Guy

Scotus wrote:

Actually, I am an American of mostly Scottish and English ancestry (Archer is English).  I do wear a kilt from time to time for Scottish cultural events, and I belong to several Scottish cultural societies.   And yes, I am a traditionalist and celebrate to the Tridentine Mass every Sunday and Holy Day.

Father Archer

Dear Fr. Archer,

Please clarify something for me.  Since I do not belong to the Catholic Demonination, I do not understand it’s rules and regulations.  So in reguard to the last sentence, I am a little confused.  If the rules are that the Mass is in now in English, the how does one explain how the clergy can say Mass in Latin and members of the faithful, such as Donnchadh, participate in a Latin Mass?

Thank you,

Ed W

I’m not Fr. Archer so I apologize for jumping in, but…

The official language of the Mass is Latin. Indeed the official language of the Church is Latin. However, since 1965 it has been permitted to say the Mass in the vernacular of whatever country one is in. This has become what happens more often than not for obvious reasons. So, Mass is only in English in English-speaking countries.

However, saying Mass or parts of the Mass in Latin is always and everywhere permitted.

In addition, because of permission given by the late Pope John Paul II the local bishop may also authorize the celebration of the so-called "old mass" or the Tridentine Mass. This is the Mass as it was said prior to the changes that occurred at Vatican II. This traditional Mass may be celebrated only according to the Missal (version of the Mass) of 1962. Some dioceses allow the use of this Mass frequently and some less so.

The bottom line remains that Vatican II did not "do away with" Latin and it is still very much alive and well in the Church.

Edward Wenzl wrote:

...how does one explain how the clergy can say Mass in Latin and members of the faithful, such as Donnchadh, participate in a Latin Mass?

A priest may celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass with permission of the Bishop.*  Also, the new Mass (Novus Ordo) can be said in Latin without permission of the bishop.

Latin is still the official language of the Catholic Church; although Mass is allowed in the vernacular, Latin is *supposed* to "...be given pride of place in liturgical services…." (December 4, 1963, Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy). The document also commands that "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites" (36.1).

Cheers,

—Guy

*The current rumor (well, more than rumor) is that Benedict XVI will free-up the Traditional Latin Mass so that any priest can celebrate it without a bishop’s permission.  Still a rumor ... but a nice one.

Sheesh Fr. Guy .... you and I posted almost the same thing at the same time.  I wonder if our same names has anything to do with this sychronicity?

"et cum Spiritu tuo"

—Guy