Hey everybody!

I have been doing some brainstorming, and I have come to the conclusion that I need a proper crest. Something on a torse of the colors. Unfortunately, I am having trouble thinking up a design or having a charge (question, designs making up crest are called charges as well, right?) that goes with the shield (not a round one, a regular European shield, work with me folks:)) and 1) doesn’t look like some itty-bitty thing a herald happened to leave lying atop my shield, and 2) doesn’t look like it has a little shield attached to the bottom of it (yeah, it’s that big). Anyone have any ideas or visualizations regarding a suitable crest for me?

My preferences are for charges taken from the shield (crescent(s) and star(s) ) and in either the tintures (vert and argent) or gold. No completely unrelated charges or color, I absolutely hate that in arms. Like when there are arms are say, Azure, a lion rampant or, and the crest is like a unicorn vert crowned gules holding a French battle standard proper! I know sometimes they are for historical reasons, but these are my humble opinions as an uninformed observor look at arms on say, stationery, or painted on a carriage.

So, any ideas? I was wondering if I can use the Egyptian emblem of a crescent and three stars, not to try to presume relation to royal family, but as a symbol of loyalty, perhaps?

Hope to see some interesting ideas.

Regards,

How about a star between three cresents, grouped around the star with their points inwards touching the star, the star vert and the cresents argent.

Mohamed, is there any reference to this style of helm being crested? I’d imagine feathers or horsehair attached to the spike might have been done, but not a crest in the sense you’re talking about.

Remember, we who adopt a European style helm and shield also adopt the European style crest-but what of other styles? Are there examples of the type of crest you’re talking about on Mameluke helms?

Here’s where you might want to consider a European style enblazonment: look at Andemichaels’s in the members arms pages-one enblazonment in the cultural style you desire and then another in the European style to have a crest on the helm.

ACtually, I wanted a crest so I can depict my arms in a European style that I have seen very often (mostly british) being the shield of arms topped with the crest on a torse directly. I really like that alot.

Personally, I will let the charges and colors speak of my ethnicity and ancestry, same as Hassan Kamel-Kelisli-Morali has done. It is very simple, elegant, and not so cluttered. (I never was a fan of helms and mantling in the European sense)

Cheers!

Hm…..I was wondering if it would be heraldically appropriate for me to ensign my shield with a Sharifian Turban proper, or would that be considered too noble?

Mohamed, the answer to that question depends on several things:

1. Are you, indeed, a sharif? If not, then displaying a sharifian turban would be inappropriate.

2. Are you a naturalized citizen of the United States? If so, then you would have been required to repudiate all foreign titles and displaying the armorial accoutrements of foreign nobility would be inappropriate.

3. Are you the male heir of a sharif who became an American citizen? If so, then your father/grandfather/whatever would have to have repudiated his noble titles and you would not, by right of inheritance, technically be a sharif and therefore displaying a sharifian turban would be inappropriate.

4. If you are a natural American citizen (born here) and have been recognized/named/ennobled to the rank of sharif by a foreign (in your case Egyptian, yes?) government and/or legitimate font of honour then displaying a sharifian turban would be appropriate but might not be considered tasteful. Certainly, you can display these additaments when you are acting in the capacity of a sharif, but the egalitarian nature of American society makes them sort of snobby for daily use in the United States.

5. If you are resident alien and a legitimate and recognized sharif, then, by the rules of courtesy, it would be most appropriate for you to display the honors, additiaments and/or accoutrements of your rank.

Patrick,

"Sharif" is a tricky title.  It isn’t granted by a foreign government—the ashraf (plural) are those who claim descent from the prophet Muhammad through his daughter Fatima.

It’s hard to see how it would be possible to disclaim the status of sharif, any more than it would be for a Jew claiming descent from Aaron or Levi to disclaim the status of a kohen or a levite.

However, I am inclined to agree that specifically sharifian accoutrements are just as inappropriate in American arms as the emblems of other kinds of hereditary nobility.  Of course, if Mohamed Hossam is not a US citizen, then it’s an entirely different matter.  The question then becomes whether there is a tradition of ashraf in Egypt (is it Egypt, or elsewhere?) using the sharif’s turban this way?  I believe the Hashemite Sharifs of Mecca may have displayed a turban atop their Western-style arms, but of course they were secular rulers of Hijaz and later members of the royal families of Jordan and Iraq, so different rules might apply to them.

Ah, thanks for that, Joseph. I had wondered about the title of Sharif. Now I know! :D

Off topic and irrelevant to this discussion: there is now a way to prove Cohanim ancestry in the male line. There’s a specific yDNA mutation common to ALL Cohanim males. You either have it or you don’t and are therefore Cohanim or not. Isn’t genetics a wonderful science?

Given (per Joe’s message) that sharif indicates a specific lineage, maybe including it as a charge would be more appropriate (leaving aside whether it would add to the design artistically).  We have at least one example on these pages of a member or guest who has included a crown or similar lineage-specific headgear as a charge on the shield, that you might look at.

If you do, perhaps it would work better as a replacement for the star on the fess of your original design.  In c which case the star would disappear, or perhaps the crescents could each enclose a star.

As anj external ornament (i.e. used as if it were a crown) it would strike me as inappropriate in an American context because it would emphasize the "status" of sharif rather than just the lineage.

Just suggestions…

Michael F. McCartney wrote:

As anj external ornament (i.e. used as if it were a crown) it would strike me as inappropriate in an American context because it would emphasize the "status" of sharif rather than just the lineage.

He could always use it as part of his crest as one might use an astral or naval crown. For example:

Issuant from a Sharifian Turban, a demi-lion clutching in his dexter claw a crescent and in his sinister claw a mullet of five points all or.

Just a thought.

Take care,

PBlanton wrote:

He could always use it as part of his crest as one might use an astral or naval crown. For example:

Issuant from a Sharifian Turban, a demi-lion clutching in his dexter claw a crescent and in his sinister claw a mullet of five points all or.

I think this would be the best move… a doge if I ever saw one but it does, at least technically, avoid any inappropriate claim to preeminence…