Hey everybody!

I had a question regarding application of heraldry. I know everyone will have a unique opinion, but what is the "most proper" application of heraldry, i.e as used by aristocracy? I am only using aristocracy as an example, since I am a traditionalist when it comes to such matters.

For example, if I went to the home (more like estate and mansion!) of a proper noble of the late 19th early 20th century in Europe, what would I see his coat of arms applied on? Gimme lots of details!

I am completely aware that you can use your arms on anything you like, but I want to know more about the example of traditional European practices (us Easterners being enamoured of all things western and classic, and especcially all things of display!)

So, any ideas?

Regards,

I don’t hang out with European nobles all that much, but in the home of a wealthy American of that period you’d be likely to see his arms engraved on the family silver, painted on the china, and etched into the glassware; painted on the door of his carriage or (a little later) automobile; possibly carved in stone above the door of the house (depending on the style of the house) and into the woodwork of a mantelpiece or a paneled room, or worked in plaster along the cornices of the ceilings.  If you opened a book in his library, you’d probably find the arms engraved on the bookplate; they might also be stamped on the leather binding as well.  If he carried a walking stick, he would likely have the arms or crest engraved on the head of the stick.  He might be wearing a signet ring with the arms or crest.  See my article on the arms of the two Presidents Roosevelt for more—Alice Roosevelt (daughter of Theodore) even had the family arms embroidered into the train of her wedding gown.  http://www.heraldrysociety.us/presidents/index.php?page=Roosevelt

Rich people who dressed their servants in livery might put the crest on the buttons of the footmen’s uniforms.

Lots more possibilities.

Here are a few.

Bookplates are an obvious use, together with heraldic bindings for those who could afford to do so.

On porcelain the whole achievement (usually in the centre) or the crest (often on the rim).

Whole achievement (possibly) or more probably the crest on hall chairs.

Whole achievement or crest (usually depending on size) on plate and on glassware.

An achievement somewhere on the building. Often in Georgian architecture on the pediment or in gothic architecture on roof bosses or entire painted ceilings. Also often as an heraldic overmantle, though sometimes this would be reserved for the overlord so that in British houses you will often find the royal arms above the fire in the main room.

Elements of arms used in decorative schemes. Thus supporters or crest (if a beast) on gateposts, newel posts and in all sorts of carvings. Wrought iron heraldic gates and arms or elements of them on sundials. Non animal features may be used too.

I also knew a baronet who had a family tradition of collecting items with cockerels on them since that bird was a feature (the canting element) in his arms.

A good place to start is "Heraldry in National Trust Houses" ISBN 0 7078 0277 6 by Thomas Woodcock and John Martin Robinson (Norroy & Ulster King of Arms and Maltravers Herald Extraordinary) is a good place to see examples of English use of heraldry for decorative purposes.

James

Wow, thanks for the information Joe. Very informative. Were livery costumes common during this period? I know of that case that you told us about previously of the gentleman in Rhode Island whose servant’s heraldic buttons were used to prove something (I am sorry for lack of detail, I read it a while back!)

What exactly did this livery consist of, or look like?

All in all, a very informative reply. Thanks!

Regards,

MohamedHossam wrote:

Were livery costumes common during this period?

It probably wasn’t livery in the traditional sense of the term, but basically a uniform worn by certain servants.  (See below.) Common among people who could afford to maintain large household staffs in great houses; certainly not common among the population at large.

Quote:

I know of that case that you told us about previously of the gentleman in Rhode Island whose servant’s heraldic buttons were used to prove something

Their status as servants.  A dispute over a will hinged on whether the people who worked for the deceased were "servants" (in which case they were provided for by the will) or "employees" (in which case they weren’t).  The RI court held that wearing the livery buttons with the employer’s arms was a sign of servant status, and they got their money.

Quote:

What exactly did this livery consist of, or look like?

http://www.pbs.org/manorhouse/images/people/illustrations/charlie_rob.jpg

Like this, during the Edwardian/turn of the century period.

Mohamed,

In Egypt, the royal household also wore the royal family’s liveries (red and blue). The footmen and royal guard also wore the livery colors.  They were the same shade of red and blue of the colors of the sash of the Grand Cordon of the Order of Ismail.

Regards,

I see. Thank you for the information. Would the only heraldic "reminders" on the livery be the coat of arms or crest on the buttons, and the colors being used for the actual uniform? Like, would they wear a badge of the arms or something similar? Servants’ livery being something I am interested in, but of course, internet resources on this subject are scarce. Though I am fortunate to own a copy of "English Country Life", which describes estate life in the early 19th century.

I hope to one day have my own estate in Egypt someday (a Villa for myself, surrounded by a citrus plantation, plus stables, houses for servants and farmers, and perhaps a small Zaouia bearing the name of an illustrious ancestor. Zaouia (zawya) being to a mosque, what a chapel is to a church). We can all dream can’t we! So they need livery of course, though with a fez prolly.

Well, just thought I’d mention it, so you all know where I am coming from on the topic of using heraldry like a gentleman.

California dreamin’,

Ofcourse you realize that when you get that Villa we’ll all be expecting an invitation:D

I read that during Elizabethan times livery was the display of your Lord’s badge as a pin.  It’s actually mentioned twice in "Blood and Roses", which is a very good book, btw.

An invitation most properly embossed with my arms, no doubt!

:cool:

Though, land and construction isn’t that expensive in Egypt, if you are focused on what you want.

Cheers,

One item that is visabily missing from the list provided everyone on this thread, and which would have been social death if not provided was the calling or visiting card. This was a small white card with the arms and the name of caller on it. You will all have seen in historical movies the Butler presenting a card on a silver salver to someone.

There were several functions that the card carried

1) It put a distance between the visitor and the host.The host could

therefore accept the caller or reject his visit without face to face contact

and without causing offence.

2) The host would know automatically the social standing of the visitor,

through the arms, helm, coronet etc. The host would therefore be able to

adjust conversation / social interaction to the visitors’ social standing.

3) It filled most of the fuctions of a business card today.

4) If the host was not at home,it would be left in the hallway of the house on

a silver salver. This would announce to the host that he had had a visitor

were all the above reasons would apply.

M85324 wrote:

One item that is visabily missing from the list provided everyone on this thread, and which would have been social death if not provided was the calling or visiting card. This was a small white card with the arms and the name of caller on it. You will all have seen in historical movies the Butler presenting a card on a silver salver to someone. ...

A Coat of Arms on a visiting card was general considered to reveal a lack of good taste. The card should be plain with just the name, a title and maybe an address.

I have seen images of the calling cards of various middle eastern royalty, including the Khedive Abbas Helmi, and some members of the Iraqi Royal Family. I will find them and try to post it. Just a sec

I am in full agreement with you on this point. Heraldry should never appear on a personal visiting card. See these articles for more information:

http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/cards.html

http://www.bartleby.com/95/10.html

Here is an example of heraldry (of a sort) on an American visiting card of an official of the Grand Army of the Republic: http://www.ohiocivilwar.com/9bat.jpg

A hand written visiting card from the US Postmaster General:

http://www.wvculture.org/History/government/wilsonwilliam01.jpg

Visiting card of the German Emperor:

http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/memoir/Gerard2/images/cover5.jpg

Dear David,

"Heraldry should never appear on a personal visiting card."

Why?

I appreciate that there was once a difference between ‘visiting’ cards and ‘business’ cards and that visiting cards usually only included the name of the individual.

However, probably no-one now carries both a visiting card and a business card.

As heraldry is a means of identification I see no reason why heraldry should not be included on a visiting/business card.

In many ways a visiting card is similar to a personal bookplate. The earliest bookplates displayed the arms of the individual only without any identifying name. I am surprised that the earliest visiting cards did not do likewise.

Regards,

Iain Boyd

If I can make the image function work, a picture of my "social card" should follow.  The top is the obverse and below the reverse.  It is the size of a typical business card, so it is easy to carry.

http://www.wyverngules.com/Webmasters/social-card—modified.gif

At the risk of violating social rules mentioned, I have created a card that works for me.  I find it useful to have a card to use at society or order events, when meeting someone new.  I think my business card is useless to persons I meet in such a setting, for they do not care about my career in widget building, other than using the back as a blank piece of paper.  How many times have you seen someone turn over his card and write out a home address at a social function? This prevents having to do that.  Perhaps heraldry was considered inappropriate on a calling card, but I think the people I meet at such events may enjoy a little heraldry.

The world of calling cards has largely passed away or is irrelevant for me.  I have borrowed the principle, however, that a card should be tasteful, not too pretentious, and useful.

Kind regards,

/Charles

Very very nice! That is a very nice example of a modern idea combined with a classical heraldic idea. I see nothing at all wrong with it. All in all, a very nice touch.

I am currently browsing your site, it is very interesting. Francis Drake! Why didn’t I recall that soon enough, I know that seemed familiar. The famous explorer of course!

Regards,