Quote:

of course no one would try to eat soup by trying to balance it on the back of the spoon!

Then surely that would be a "mark of higher manners" for it would be "complicated and less utilitarian."

/Charles

Joseph McMillan wrote:

Going to David’s point, Judith Martin (Miss Manners) observed in a lecture she gave at Harvard that at one time European and American etiquette on the use of knives and forks was the same—you cut the meat with the knive in the right hand, then switched the fork around and put the food in your mouth with the right hand, tines up. At some point, however, the Europeans changed and adopted the fashion they use today. She points out (only slightly satirically) that since the mark of higher manners is that they are more formalized and complicated and less utilitarian, the American style is not only older (therefore better) but also more civilized.

Remaining firmly off-topic, I might, as a European who has lived in the United States for a total of more than a decade, and therefore has had to take a personal stance in whether to apply American or European etiquette with regard to the use of knife and fork, be so bold as to take issue with that American icon of polite comportment, Ms. Martin (sharp intake of breath – “How dare he?!!”).  Perish the thought that I should take issue with the Director of Education.

Without in any way commenting on the correctness of American versus European table manners, I submit that the newfangled European fashion is in fact the more practical.  Rather than – as I have observed the American custom to be – picking up the knife with one’s right hand and the fork with one’s left hand (or vice versa if one happens to be left-handed), cutting one’s food using both implements, putting both down, and shifting one’s fork from the left to the right hand in order finally to transfer the food to one’s mouth, a European tends to take his (or indeed her) knife in his right hand, his fork in his left hand (or, as before, vice versa as appropriate), where they remain throughout the cutting and transferring, the knife occasionally and handily serving as an aid in ensuring that food is sufficiently securely skewered on the fork before making the precarious travel to the mouth.  This prevents having to chase unruly bits of food around the plate.  Ergo, the European style would seem to be the more utilitarian.

I concede that the European practice may be the more complicated, as it does after all require a greater degree of coordination in the continuous, rather than intermittent, simultaneous use of as many as two implements.

Sorry, what is the icon for “tongue in cheek” again?

Sunil Saigal wrote:

I submit that the newfangled European fashion is in fact the more practical.  (snip) the European style would seem to be the more utilitarian.

Yes, which is precisely why Judith Martin argues that it is less civilized.  If practicality is the objective, why not just pick up the plate and slide the contents into your mouth with your fingers? 

(Exchange between Henry II and Becket in the film Becket:

King:  Why would I want to use a fork?

Becket:  It keeps your fingers from getting dirty.

King:  But then the fork gets dirty.

Becket:  You can wash the fork.

King:  You can wash your hands.  I don’t see the point.)

Sheesh…...I didn’t know you Americans used knives and forks :-D

"Sheesh…...I didn’t know you Americans used knives and forks"

Actually I much prefer chopsticks, except of course for soup.

Its beginning to sound like use of heraldry on calling cards is a bit like displaying non-governmental gongs with one’s arms—OK perhaps "within the circle" but not in general use.  Too bad.  If any of us shluld make it to Quebec for the next Congress, I would hope that the interest in sharing heraldry would outweigh Ms. Vanderbilt’s ruling, at least in that setting.

And if anyone should join our little group of heraldry enthusiasts in Mountain View for lunch, I can quarantee that we would not be scandalized by a bit of calling card emblazonment.

Michael F. McCartney wrote:

Its beginning to sound like use of heraldry on calling cards is a bit like displaying non-governmental gongs with one’s arms—OK perhaps "within the circle" but not in general use. Too bad.

Was this a wee snipe at me Michael?

David Pritchard wrote:

If one eats with the fork in the left hand and the knife in the right with both implements working together, the tines would normally be downward unless one was eating peas or some other tricky food.

Though we’re now well OT I’m disappointed that no one seems to know the correct method for the eating of peas, which is of course to line them up in single file on the blade of the knife

James

Drake,

Why is the crest on your card different from the crest of your avatar?

Joseph McMillan wrote:

Yes, which is precisely why Judith Martin argues that it is less civilized.  If practicality is the objective, why not just pick up the plate and slide the contents into your mouth with your fingers? 

Trent wrote:

Drake,

Why is the crest on your card different from the crest of your avatar?

Please, call me Charles. 

The simple answer is that I have two crests, and for the card I like the older one better.

The longer answer is one which I am planning to tell once I have the post properly composed.

Kind regards,

/Charles

James Dempster wrote:

Though we’re now well OT I’m disappointed that no one seems to know the correct method for the eating of peas, which is of course to line them up in single file on the blade of the knife :-D

A short poem from my wife’s childhood:

I eat my peas with honey;

I’ve done it all my life.

It makes the peas taste funny,

but it keeps them on my knife.

Now…back to heraldry!

David Boven wrote:

A short poem from my wife’s childhood:

I eat my peas with honey;

I’ve done it all my life.

It makes the peas taste funny,

but it keeps them on my knife.

Now…back to heraldry!

Okay, howzabout Checky Gules and Argent on the blade of a table knife fesswise Or six pommes?

Charles,

I think we’re all going to be anxiously waiting to hear that story.  Two crests.  Intriguing.