Starting a new members area thread about this discussion about creating arms for my husband.
To recap, my husband does NOT go back to any man that was granted a Coat, yet a possible alternate and origin surname could be Bagereau.
What I decided to do, which maybe unorthodoxed, is to create a Coat design for his 7th time removed grandfather, Henri Badgerow/Bagereau. One family researcher has possibly found Henri was born in Les Sable d’Olonne, France in 1757. He came to America on one of French ships sent to help the colonist defeat the British. For his service he was granted land in New York, yet after a few years migrated to Markham, Ontario, Canada. From this man roughly 90% of Badgerows in the USA and CAD decend from. Some of Henri’s generations migrated back into the USA in the mid to late 1800s.
This is my proposed Coat for Henri Badgerow/Bagereau.
http://custom-gifts-and-arts.com/heraldry/badgerow_proparms.jpg
Okay, since my husband would a direct male heir, he could use these arms but of course some indifference (now that I know to use this term for this)could be added. What I am not sure on is if the crest can also be indifference or not?
I should note that this is a NEW design not taken from any past Coat or from a man with like surname. Also I am not educated on proper heraldric terminology and how to use it here (I am a newbie). So please bear with me. I LOVE to creat coats from scratch or attempt to bring blazon to its visual presentation, I find the art fastinating.
Kelley, could you share some rationale for the design? I’d like to know it before I make up my mind completely.
As I said, I will reserve my final opinion on them, but…I find them a bit over-cluttered. I don’t mean to offend and that’s why I’d like to know the rationale to help me with my opinion on them. Thanks.
Due to the distance in relation to Henri Badgerow/Bagereau of Les Sable d’Olonne, is it appropriate to attribute arms in memoriam to him?
I find this awfully cluttered. What if you were to split the charge per pale and make one half a fleur-de-lys and the other half a Maple leaf?
Donnchadh;81095 wrote:
Kelley, could you share some rationale for the design? I’d like to know it before I make up my mind completely.
Simply: French-Canadian
Fluer-de-lis = "It remains an enduring symbol of France that appears on French postage stamps, although it has never been adopted officially by any of the French republics. According to French historian Georges Duby, the three leaves represent the medieval social classes: those who worked, those who fought and those who prayed.[3]
In North America, the fleur-de-lis is often associated with areas formerly settled by France, such as Quebec, St. Louis, Louisville and Louisiana, and with French-speaking people in other Canadian provinces." (Wikipedia)
Maple Leaf and Colors = Canada: "At the beginning of the eighteenth century, the settlements of New France had attained a population of about 18,000. Also by this time, the maple leaf had been adopted as an emblem by the French Canadians along the Saint Lawrence River.[1]
Its popularity with French Canadians continued, and was reinforced when, at the inaugural meeting of the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste in 1834,[2] the maple leaf was one of numerous emblems proposed to represent the society. Speaking in its favour, Jacques Viger, the first mayor of Montreal, described the maple as "the king of our forest; ... the symbol of the Canadian people."
(Wikipedia)
At first I had two fluer-de-lis on top of one another (charged, impossed or what the term for it is) yet found past Coats similar, thus used the Maple leaf instead and in turn punning the fact Henri born France (reason for the fluer-de-lis to be the bigger charge), lived and died in Canada, and thus makes him French-Canadian.
Counterchanging the colors of a device on top of a device is not new, it been done before in past to present Coats thus I knew it would be tincture correct.
I initially did not have the bordure counterchanged, Geoff suggest it so the arms would look color balanced…. though it makes the arms louder.
This definitely makes the arms POP out at you and if in battle with 100 more men, it would stand out from the crowd. (These are my words not Geoff’s)
Yet, if you all feel the counterchange is just TO MUCH. I can remove counterchanging.
http://custom-gifts-and-arts.com/heraldry/badgerow_arms2.jpg
Kelley,
Here’s what I like: the crest. In particular, the badger issuant from the circlet of cog wheels is a nice blend of canting and an allusion to your husband’s interests.
I also like the bold fleur-de-lis in the arms.
I don’t like the bordure. I don’t like the maple leaf on the fleur-de-lis. Coming from a Canadian perspective, it looks too much like a logo for some kind of quasi-governmental English-French friendship committee.
Might I suggest "Or, a fleur-de-lis sable, over all a fess gules charged with a maple leaf between two mullets argent".
Thus the French ancestry would be prominent, but in the background, and the fess could indicate both his Canadian and American roots (by alluding to both flags.
You might also consider using a sprig of three maple leaves, which is used in both the arms of Ontario:
http://www.heraldry.ca/images/arms_prov/ONcoat.jpg
and Quebec:
http://www.heraldry.ca/images/arms_prov/quebec.gif.
Or, like in my own crest, trilliums are the official flower of Ontario.
Kenneth Mansfield;81099 wrote:
I find this awfully cluttered. What if you were to split the charge per pale and make one half a fleur-de-lys and the other half a Maple leaf?
I like this suggestion a lot, it is a great way to put the French into the Canadian. 
I find Kenneth’s suggestion graphically better but conceptually just as horrible as the original. It might make a great design for a French-Canadian society of some kind, or some Franco-Canadian joint venture. As a personal coat of arms it’s awful. It’s the absolutely worst kind of "lucky charms" heraldry.
thanks for the background info Kelley.
Joseph McMillan;81103 wrote:
I find Kenneth’s suggestion graphically better but conceptually just as horrible as the original. It might make a great design for a French-Canadian society of some kind, or some Franco-Canadian joint venture. As a personal coat of arms it’s awful. It’s the absolutely worst kind of "lucky charms" heraldry.
After trying it out in PS, I have to agree that the design is not appealing. I thought it would look okay, but I was quite wrong.
Two thoughts:
First: I agree that the fleur-de-lis and maple leaf are too generic. Arms are meant to identify an individual, and the number of persons who may claim French ancestry and Canadian connections is legion. The badger is much more distinctive, and probably belongs on the shield, not just in the crest. A fierce badger’s head could be used, as well as the whole animal. In a particularly dark moment, I envisioned a badger’s head and a single annulet (embattled or not) for "badger – O". (Sorry!)
Second: I have always wondered how to blazon a suggestion such as Kenneth’s. I know one could get the proposed effect by dimidiation, e.g. "Dimidiating Gules a fleur-de-lis Argent and Argent a maple leaf Gules." Dimidiation, however, is a way of marshaling arms. How would one blazon such a device as part of a simple coat of arms? Would one have to say, "Per pale Gules and Argent a demi fleur-de-lis and a demi maple leaf conjoined in pale counterchanged" or is there some cleaner way to do this?
Repeating my suggestion from the open area of the forum
Quote:
If we start with the French arms of Bagereau, Azure three lozenges in bend Argent, over all a lion rampant Or,
And change the gold lion to a gold badger (I’d suggest salient) for the pun on the name;
And change the lozenges to cogwheels for the mechanical reference;
You get Azure three cogwheels in bend Argent, over all a badger salient Or.
This would be a differenced version of the arms of Bagereau, with the two differences that many heraldists consider necessary to distinguish "strangers in blood" (people who aren’t known to be related, like your husband and Charles Bagereau). If you wanted to, you could also fiddle with the colors if you don’t like blue, silver, and gold (to which I myself am partial, as you can see from my own arms).
One could also have one larger cogwheel with the badger superimposed on it, although that begins to lose the allusion to the French arms.
I hasten to add that my aversion to the fleur-de-lys/maple leaf concept is altogether unrelated to having suggested this design.
kkb-ia;81092 wrote:
What I decided to do, which maybe unorthodoxed, is to create a Coat design for his 7th time removed grandfather, Henri Badgerow/Bagereau.[/img]
Hi Kelley,
Couple questions:
First, do you have any documents (birth/death certificate, census document, etc.) showing that Henri Badgerow had any other surname variation? And even if you did have such a document, would Henri Badgerow want the former spelling to be broadcast since many (though not all) immigrants who "Americanized" their surnames did so to announce their loyalty to their new country. References to their country of origin could be a sour point (as with my great grandfather who wished to be American and his last name spelling change proudly illustrated this for him).
Second, are you saying Henri Badgerow is your husband’s 7th Great Grandfater (Great Great Great…), or are you saying in the consanguinous scheme he is 7th removed somehow (which "removed" would apply to a cousin)?
Third, if it is a 7th great-grandfather (which I assume), are you actually attempting to design arms for this person as "attributed?"
Thanks in advance for clearing this up.
- Jeff
A LOT of sound advice and sound suggestions.
Jeff: Not ALL people change the spelling their last name on purpose, what generally happens is many in this time frame could not read nor write thus the English speaking colonists tended to spell it like it sounds, per say Bagereau coming from a French speaking person sounds like Badge-row. It also has been spelled Badgero, Badjero, Badro, Bagro, Badgron, and so forth. I personal have not seen the ship manifest yet it is the first incident the last name appears as Bagereau, and I do believe the first land grants the surname is spelled as such…. on Census it is spelled in more ways then one -
Knowing a little about French surnames, it could actually be something like LaSalle De Bagereau… and the main reason why we can not find his France origin and family.
Yes, Henri Badgerow/Bagereau would be my husband’s 7th removed or 6th grandfather back.
Mike > 1. Bruce > 2. Robert > 3. Bert > 4. Robert > 5. Martinius, Jr. > 6. Martinius > 7. Henri
I will go back to the drawing board on this. My reason for going back to Henri has been explained… If I can create an arms for him then all heirs along his line can possibly use them and make indifferences if so desired. Henri had four sons from two wives.
Joseph McMillan;81103 wrote:
I find Kenneth’s suggestion graphically better but conceptually just as horrible as the original. It might make a great design for a French-Canadian society of some kind, or some Franco-Canadian joint venture. As a personal coat of arms it’s awful. It’s the absolutely worst kind of "lucky charms" heraldry.
Quite. Too much graphic design lately. Not enough heraldry.
Joseph McMillan;81107 wrote:
Repeating my suggestion from the open area of the forum
As I said on the other thread, this is brilliant. Too bad it appears to have no traction with the OP.
kkb-ia;81109 wrote:
A LOT of sound advice and sound suggestions.
[snip]
I will go back to the drawing board on this.
A good idea.
I also liked the idea on the other thread about a field semy of cogwheels with, was it a lion rampant?
