Hi gentlemen,
As some of you know my nephew desired an original crest for himself. His father’s crest is different from his grandfathers, which is a good way to put a personalization on his Arms without any change to the shield. Starting a "new" family tradition, I was pretty happy when this heir not only showed interest, but didn’t want to change the shield or motto.
We had some preliminary discussions and Barrie helped with some drafts, but my nephew went silent and I figured he was either reconsidering or decided not to make the change. At Christmas I found out he "completed" his design and had a tat of it put on his arm. Attached is the best picture I have of it. Now I’m faced with blazoning it for an update to his USHR registry. I could use some help because it has some heraldic issues:
1. The tat is facing sinister, actually 3/4 instead of the typical profile. He wanted the lion facing "forward" on his right arm.. go figure. I’m thinking at best we might be able to say it’s facing "forward" because the tat doesn’t show a helm… and it’s not in profile…
2. The orignal thought was from a wreath of crosses and spearheads. The tat is definitely a crown with crosses and spearheads where the "points" would be. Any idea how to blazon this? can it be from a crown of crosses and spearheads?
3. I don’t have a color for the lion yet, we have discussed proper, Argent and Or. Thoughts? The Shield is: Per Fess Argent and Azure in chief two Ravens proper jointly transfixed by an Arrow fesswise point to sinister in base a Fouled Anchor Or for a difference a label of three points Gules.
4. He greatly prefers a lion that is not the typical menancing beastie we see in hearaldry with mouth open and toungue sticking out. I know this is artistic vs heraldic, but is there something in the world of blazoning that specifies such a demeanor?
I could use some advice on this one - I’d like a correct blazon for the crest he’s chosen, but I’m coming up short on "good heraldry" when face with a non-heraldic artist doing the rendition (tattoo).
I’m at: From a crown of crosses and spearheads, a lion erased (color)
Thanks in advance
My impression is that the artist appears to have rendered the crosses so as to allude to the biblical scene of the crucifixion with Jesus’s cross in foreground and the two mundane criminals’ crosses flanking. Also the lion’s head reminds me of Aslan from C.S. Lewis’s books… which is often cited as a metaphor for Jesus as well. Just thought I’d share my impressions; all in all I think the artist was trying to convey a christian theme here.
I am no help with blazoning on this, but the lion’s head does appear to be vaguely "erased" and "affrontey."
Personally, I would treat this solely as a work of art rather than a heraldic artifact and would not attempt to come up with a blazon for it. That way, treating it as art, it doesn’t have to be judged by strict heraldic criteria. The tattoo could simply be an adaptation loosely based on some actual heraldic crest which more strictly conformed to heraldic sensibilities?
I have no idea who the artist is, although I’m sure he’s not a heraldic artist. I can treat it as a loose adaptation, but my nephew wants his crest to be basically what you see - so I need to come up with something that would cause a heraldic artist to come to a fairly close design (given artistic license, of course). With so many artists here, I’m hoping we can.
As to the religious bent, well, there may be come truth to that - from the artist and my nephew. But I think the sizing of the crosses/spearheads was more a depth thing on the artists part. "Aslan" was inspired by a rendition in the Canadian web site which had a lion drawn with his mouth closed (but I can no longer find the link).
The spears and crosses are a reference to his Mother (Rhonda) and Father (Timothy). Rhonda meaning "good lance/spear/pike" depending on who you believe and Timothy meaning "honoring God." My nephew being Brian (noble/exaulted). Hence the lion (often thought of as a noble animal) rising from Rhonda and Timothy (spears and and crosses). Although the picture has it’s problems in heraldry, he did put some thought into what he wanted and what the symbology meant.
First off, let’s be clear about crowns. They are for kings and queens. This is a coronet.
Secondly, it is difficult to tell whether this lion’s head is erased or couped. Erased would be a ragged line, generally showing some of the neck (as if the head had been pulled off the body or simply drawn to "fade out"), while couped is a straight line typically with no neck showing (as if the head has been cut off with a sharp blade).
This last issue is compounded by the fact that the artist has drawn things quite non-heraldically, showing for instance the crowns and spears on the back side of the coronet.
I think of couped as being used for animals that have been hunted, like boars, and then actually had their heads cut off. Given the meaning of the lion’s head here, it may be best to go with erased regardless of the way it appears in this tattoo.
I don’t think it matters that the lion’s head is facing sinister. Since it is on the right arm, it is facing forward. People studying paper heraldry often overlook the reason why animals and other charges face the dexter side of the shield - because they would then be facing forward on the shield carried on the left arm. I would expect a left-handed knight to have had all of his charges on his actual shield facing sinister even if they faced dexter in displays. The direction of animals and charges gets changed for all sorts of reasons (placement of stall plates, illustrations of marital arms) so no reason the same can’t be applied to a tattoo on the right arm. The tricky part is the 3/4 profile. I’d be tempted to not mention it and let that one be dealt with between owner and artist. Given the default attributes of mouth and tongue, though, if he wants the mouth closed that needs to be stated.
I would go with Issuant from a coronet of Latin Crosses and Spear-heads [insert color] a Lion’s head erased mouth closed [insert color].
Thanks. My bust on the crown/coronet debacle, I am certainly no expert in such things.
I agree on erased vs couped. Definitely erased.
In my novice mind the biggest issue was the facing of the lion, Thanks so much Kenneth for a point of view which I hadn’t considered.
For a crest like this, I wonder whether one needs to specify whether the lion’s head is couped or erased. Drawn in a more heraldic style as issuant from within the coronet, would not the base of the lion’s neck be obscured by the coronet, so neither couped nor erased? If the head were upon or above a wreath, it might be necessary to specify couped or erased, but not if it is issuant.
As for describing the coronet, Kenneth’s blazon would probably get the job done. I have seen a grant from the CoA, however, describing a distinctive coronet in this way: "a Coronet composed of ... raised on points above a rim ...".
Kenneth Mansfield;81430 wrote:
Erased would be a ragged line, generally showing some of the neck (as if the head had been pulled off the body or simply drawn to "fade out"), while couped is a straight line typically with no neck showing (as if the head has been cut off with a sharp blade).
Whether the neck shows or not isn’t a distinction between couped and erased but between English and Scottish blazoning defaults.
An English blazon of a head either couped or erased would include the neck—the only difference would be whether the line is straight or ragged. To be shown without the neck, the term would be "couped (or erased) close."
The Scottish norm is the opposite. A head blazoned simply as couped or erased is cut or torn off right behind the ears; if the neck is shown, then it is blazoned "couped (or erased) at the neck."
Father Byers, are you suggesting:
"Issuant from a coronet of Latin Crosses and Spear-heads [insert color] a Lion’s head mouth closed [insert color]"?
Hi, Kathy and other.
Kathy emailed me about this since I was interested in seeing how the tat was done to see why it had her all upset. I felt the tat was one of those "artist stlyes" though of modern art over heradlric art. It was how her nephew invisioned it not being a student or study of heraldry.
If the crest were placed on a helm slightly turned, not directly dexter, the lion’s face would need to follow this turn, correct? Thus the only thing heraldry incorrect is how the head is cut off and how the artist interrupted the coronet.
Issuant (coming out of) is a GOOD one!
So let me try my novice blazoning on this. Issuant from a coronet of latin crosses and spear heads {color here} a lion’s head (gaurdant possible) erased mouth closed {color here}
Kathy McClurg;81438 wrote:
Father Byers, are you suggesting:
"Issuant from a coronet of Latin Crosses and Spear-heads [insert color] a Lion’s head mouth closed [insert color]"?
Yes. In the tatoo, the head is neither erased or couped, but rather appears to be floating above the coronet. Drawn in a more heraldic style as issuant, the neck would rise out of the coronet and obscure the crosses and spearheads behind it.
Myself, I would probably describe the coronet more expansively, in the manner of the CoA grant I mentioned. The result would be: Issuant from a Coronet composed of Latin Crosses and Spearheads alternately raised on points above a rim [Tincture] a Lion’s Head mouth closed [Tincture]. The simpler blazon you give above, however, would probably be clear enough. It would just be a difference of style.
kkb-ia;81439 wrote:
So let me try my novice blazoning on this. Issuant from a coronet of latin crosses and spear heads {color here} a lion’s head (gaurdant possible) erased mouth closed {color here}
Guardant would imply a body in profile with the head turned toward the viewer. The head facing the viewer by itself would be affronty. This is neither, however.
Quote:
"Issuant from a coronet of Latin Crosses and Spear-heads [insert color] a Lion’s head mouth closed [insert color]"?
Looks like the symbol of the Ritz Carlton Hotels.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkQDdpJY0BwSVCxPVly91w17aekm06Dd1VlsLubgzVRnL3xw7oaw
Kenneth Mansfield;81442 wrote:
Guardant would imply a body in profile with the head turned toward the viewer. The head facing the viewer by itself would be affronty. This is neither, however.
Thanks Ken for clearing that up for me.
Charles,
I think I’ll strongly recommend he stays away from Azure! <grin> Unfortunately, it wouldn’t look at all bad if the coronet was Or and the head was Azure which would balance nicely wiht the Azure base of the shield… and minimize the tinctures.
With Kenneth’s earlier comment about paper heraldry and the direction of the lion facing front on this depiction because of placement on his arm, and considering Father Byers more specific blazon, I think I’d like to recommend he go with simple and leave future artists some room - I am kind of a less is more person overall.
"Issuant from a coronet of Latin Crosses and Spear-heads <tincture> a Lion’s Head mouth closed <tincture>"
Unless a we have any further thoughts.
Crest: from a Coronet composed of Latin Crosses and Spearheads alternately raised on points above a rim [Tincture] a Lion’s Head mouth closed [Tincture].
What is meant by "above the rim"? the torse/wreath
kkb-ia;81561 wrote:
Crest: from a Coronet composed of Latin Crosses and Spearheads alternately raised on points above a rim [Tincture] a Lion’s Head mouth closed [Tincture].
What is meant by "above the rim"? the torse/wreath
The reference is to the rim, circlet or headband of the coronet, indicating that the crosses and spearheads rise above the circlet (rather than being embossed on the sides of the headband where jewels are often set). Depending on the final blazon, there might or might not be a wreath supporting the coronet.