Michael F. McCartney;103885 wrote:

I didn’t intend to endorse the notion of academic headgear

So no mortarboards for Boilermakers nor arms for license plate makers, eh Mike?

Correctámundo!!

Benjamin Thornton;103888 wrote:

So no mortarboards for Boilermakers nor arms for license plate makers, eh Mike?

But Boilermakers may use a gold hard-hat above their shields, if we follow the Ce Jamieson approach.

]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.parentdish.com/media/2010/03/purdue-pete-gyi0056975572-1267639492.jpg

Sorry, was busy with other things for about 24 hours.  I’d like to make a couple points:

1.  Earning your PhD certainly does include a social status change, IMHO -  particularly within the academic community.  Is it the "same" as the clergy?  Perhaps not, but.. I don’t think the argument is strong enough to not use them.

2.  Just as academics use the headgear and robes of the institution where they received their degree, I would think, if one wished to use academic display in heraldry - they would use the headgear and robes of the institution where they graduated (unless they have a position at a university warranting they use that set of regalia). I do not think that a person graduating from, say, Gannon University with a PhD should use the regalia of Harvard University.

3.  Sorry Michael, I don’t agree. I see no reason a person should not display using academic regalia that is earned.  I think it could be very tastefully accomplished in the hands of the right artist.

4.  Joe!  Please don’t point Purdue Pete out ANYWHERE in the FB heraldry community!  I’m an undergraduate of Purdue and never ever ever use Purdue Pete.

Dear All,

I still believe that the use of academic regalia as an adjunct within an heraldic achievement to be unnecessary otherwise (tongue firmly in cheek) we might as well throw the kitchen sink in as well.  I just perceive the concept (sorry Kathy) as ‘over egging the pudding’ somewhat!

On a serious point, I do recall the use of full dress gown of a Doctor of Philosophy of the University of Oxford being worn by the principal charge - a lion rampant - in the arms of an Oxford DPhil when I worked at the College of Arms and very striking it was too!  The full dress gown of an Oxford DPhil being a rather gaudy affair being a full scarlet gown with bell shaped sleeves, of which the body is made from scarlet cloth with facings and sleeves of blue silk.

With every good wish

John

I think clerical headgear are different from academic for at least two reasons:

1. Historical - the use of particular funny hats in clerical heraldry is long-standing, understood and accepted, while academic (and the others discussed recently) are none of those.

2. Functional clarity - clerical hats clearly identify who & what, while an academic bonnet or mortarboard merely says "I went to school once upon a time" but doesn’t distinguish between a PhD in say education vs chemistry vs literature vs business vs ... Etc etc.

Also the bonnet suggests a Presbyterian/Reformed (Calvinist tradition) minister i.e. it’s taken;, and a mortar board doesn’t distinguish PhD from MD, or MS/MA or BA/BS, or for that matter from the local high school.

Michael F. McCartney;103899 wrote:

I think clerical headgear are different from academic for at least two reasons:

1. Historical - the use of particular funny hats in clerical heraldry is long-standing, understood and accepted, while academic (and the others discussed recently) are none of those.

2. Functional clarity - clerical hats clearly identify who & what, while an academic bonnet or mortarboard merely says "I went to school once upon a time" but doesn’t distinguish between a PhD in say education vs chemistry vs literature vs business vs ... Etc etc.

Also the bonnet suggests a Presbyterian/Reformed (Calvinist tradition) minister i.e. it’s taken;, and a mortar board doesn’t distinguish PhD from MD, or MS/MA or BA/BS, or for that matter from the local high school.

The above is all true in the USA; though in other countries academic headgear design and colors change between law, medicine, literature, etc. and also between a masters or doctorate.  But I have never encountered academic headgear used on coats of arms in a traditional setting.

Michael F. McCartney;103899 wrote:

I think clerical headgear are different from academic for at least two reasons:

1. Historical - the use of particular funny hats in clerical heraldry is long-standing, understood and accepted, while academic (and the others discussed recently) are none of those.

2. Functional clarity - clerical hats clearly identify who & what, while an academic bonnet or mortarboard merely says "I went to school once upon a time" but doesn’t distinguish between a PhD in say education vs chemistry vs literature vs business vs ... Etc etc.

Also the bonnet suggests a Presbyterian/Reformed (Calvinist tradition) minister i.e. it’s taken;, and a mortar board doesn’t distinguish PhD from MD, or MS/MA or BA/BS, or for that matter from the local high school.

Historical and well understood starts somewhere…   (it’s kind of a mom thing)

Kathy McClurg;103894 wrote:

Sorry, was busy with other things for about 24 hours. I’d like to make a couple points:

1. Earning your PhD certainly does include a social status change, IMHO - particularly within the academic community. Is it the "same" as the clergy? Perhaps not, but.. I don’t think the argument is strong enough to not use them.

I didn’t say "status," I said "state."  The clergy are historically considered sui generis (in a category of their own) in political and legal terms, and the use of different heraldic insignia from those of laymen is a way of signifying this.  This is most apparent in the fact that the use of clerical hats as we know them was originally confined only to the Roman Catholic church, in which the state of a priest is emphatically different from that of laymen.  (Among other things, he can’t marry, and as we know matrimony is a central consideration in all things heraldic, at least traditionally.)

A doctorate is essentially just another professional qualification.  It gives you greater status, but it doesn’t fundamentally change your place in society.  Perhaps (perhaps) a useful analogy is the difference between a flag officer and any other commissioned officer.  The rear admiral (lower half) has more rank and status than an ensign, but it is holding the President’s commission that fundamentally sets both of them apart from everyone else.  (And no, I don’t favor coming up with a heraldic way to signify this.)

I get your point, Joe, but I think that’s a bit tighter minded than I am on this subject.  There are certainly some social state changes, although not as obvious or entrenched. As an example, Grants which require a primary researcher to be from the academic community.  And perhaps we should be acknowledging, in a very obvious way this achievement…

I don’t agree with your point of view re: a doctorate.  One certainly can’t and shouldn’t line it up with a PMP or HVAC certification.  There’s no comparison which should be drawn there.

I also understand your view of an ensign and an admiral.  My time with admirals was spent outside the beltway.  I agree the Presidents commission sets them apart from everyone else, and within that structure, that first star sets them again apart from everyone else.  However, that is transitory.  That little "Ret." or whatever means a great deal.  People don’t retire from being "Father". "Reverend" or "Doctor"...

We seem to have exhausted the arguments re: academic headgear pro & con.  Can’t speak for the others here, but I can live with agreeing to disagree with Kathy.  I accept her right to be mistaken, & I assume she would say the same about me.  Five years however, seems a bit short to see which view prevails in the long run. In the meantime, I suspect that we’ll repeat the dispute if / when the issu pops up again.

I’m at the same place re: the other non-clerical heraldic headgear innovations but not sure that’s been exhausted.

OOPS: just saw Kathy’s latest, posted while I was typing - I’m still exhausted (geezers tire easily) but apparently the younger folk aren’t

My position on this and on everything is "no innovation."  And God is on my side.

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done."

—Ecclesiastes 1:9.

.

- But I can’t help wondering what the heralds college established by Richard III would have thought about our online heraldry ... or for that matter, what William I and Bishop Odo would have thought about heraldry in any form, much less a college ...

Joseph McMillan;103905 wrote:

A doctorate is essentially just another professional qualification.  It gives you greater status, but it doesn’t fundamentally change your place in society.  Perhaps (perhaps) a useful analogy is the difference between a flag officer and any other commissioned officer.  The rear admiral (lower half) has more rank and status than an ensign, but it is holding the President’s commission that fundamentally sets both of them apart from everyone else.  (And no, I don’t favor coming up with a heraldic way to signify this.)

I believe precedent is against you on that point. French heraldry recognized the difference between several different offices and posts in the military.  In the U.S. each rank is considered an office and often the oath of office is administered again, even if it technically isn’t required (5 U.S.C. 3331). Also in England dukes, marquis, earls, etc. all have different coronets. Yet they are all nobility, just of different rank. Is the military or academics fundamentally different? The only difference in the U.S. that comes to mind for me is that titles of nobility are outlawed in the U.S. by the Constitution.

As for being against any innovation, let’s all rush and study 7th century heraldry.

To further illuminate my prior post:

1) Innovation is a fact of life and of history, including heraldic history. If we are to freeze heraldic tradition, at what time and what place? So I take innovation as a given, even if not all innovation is good.

2) Statuses of various types are depicted in heraldry. Knights Garter, nobility, and clerical rank are but the most obvious.

3) None of the above means that the headgear is the best place to denote a particular status or rank.

If we admit the three points above (and some may choose to take issue with one or more), the questions are

1) Is this particular accomplishment or status worth denoting in one’s arms? Finishing high school would not, imho; while a Ph.D. has a stronger argument.

2) How best ought this be depicted in the armorial achievement? Supporters would likely be confused with nobility; headgear has some merits, but also some significant problems; an escutcheon in honor point has some pros and cons.