State-Level Heraldic Authorities

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 March 2007 09:08
 

David Pritchard wrote:

You did not specify to whom you were replying? Did I miss something? To answer your question, I believe that once your arms are registered with a state recognised heraldic roll and published, this action constitutes a recognised proof to a particular coat-of-arms as an apendage of one’s name in German civil law. One would still need to bring a case armorial usurpation to civil court and submit the registration as evidence.


That is also my understanding.  Also, that registration with a society is not the only possible form of evidence, although it’s probably the easiest to establish for newly assumed arms nowadays.

 

If I understand the way it works, you need to be able to prove that you (or your ancestors) have used the arms publicly since a provable date without having been challenged for usurpation.  Publication in one of the recognized societies’ rolls of arms is one way of doing that, but so might be any of the things the English heralds used to look for during visitations—arms carved on tombstones and memorials, engraved on family heirlooms, used on seals, and so on, or private publication (maybe a notice in the legal section of a major newspaper?).  Or your ancestors might have had a grant from one of the old Pfalzgrafs or one of the pre-WW1 heraldic authorities.  It’s all a matter of convincing the judge that you have first dibs on the design.

 

The law is apparently similar in France and perhaps in some other European countries as well.

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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20 March 2007 12:14
 

Suppose that I were to just go to court and petition the judge to simply recognize myCoA, complete with blazon and/or rendering.  Is that doable?  Is that feasable?  Is that protective? Would it be a better idea to have my resident city/county recognize my CoA?  Doable?  Feasable?  Protective?

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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20 March 2007 13:39
 

Stephen, I don’t know what effect that might have IF you were even allowed to get before a judge with something like that. First, you don’t have an actionable cause (so you probably wouldn’t be allowed to bring it before a judge) and secondly you’d have the burden of proof that nobody else has ever used that device before you.

I don’t know how it is where you live, but around my home city councils are not in the business of recognizing the property rights of others. It’s a matter for the courts.

 

There’s really no way to wiggle around it - until there are laws protecting heraldry as a heritable property in the US then the potential for usurpation will be there.

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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20 March 2007 14:07
 

Thanks for the info, guys.

This is becoming increasingly frustrating.  One would think that, after almost 231 years, USGOV and/or just one of its subsidiaries would have established some sort of lasting heraldic authority by now.  :rolleyes:

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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20 March 2007 16:19
 

Joe makes some good points, & I could live with his spproach, but like mine, only in different ways, it has some weaknesses.

IMO (which is of course the touchstone of all virtue and honor! smile  the major stumbling block to Joe’s scheme (which I’ll call the modern German model) is the conflicting jurisdictions and claims of 50 state court systems between themselves and with the overarhing, but arguably constitutionally limited, Federal court system.  If Old Family Joe in SC and Newbie McNewbie in California get into a dispute, which court system has jurisdiction?  If there are differences in the outcome, which prevails?  While the Anna Nicole Smith case is great TV drama, its not all that appealing as a model for armorial protection. Without some sort of central database to capture all arms claimed to be in use, the practical difficulty of duplication research is likely to be overwhelming to the average Joe (oops—change that to read, "...to the average Tom, Dick or Harry").

 

Not that mine is perfect, either.  I implicitly assumed (or will now claim that I did) an established legal criteria similar to the relevant parts of our Best Practices, for resolving such disputes; though the time frame for "grandfathering" might need, for political reasons, to be shortened to, say, 25 years and (or?) 2nd generation.

 

Take Joe’s hypothetical—old family that can prove long usage from authentic but very obscure sources, vs. newbie who checked the more readily available sources and then assumed (both meanings) in all good faith that his arms were unique.  Assuming newbie registered his arms and that Joe’s family doesn’t register an objection within whatever prescribed period, the duplication will have to be tolerated.  That is, while either party could choose to difference their arms & (re)register, neither would be forced to.  Joe’s family, by not registering themselves, or at least checking to see if there were any conflicting new registrations within the statute of limitations, would not have forfeited their arms, only their ability to bar duplication—and even then, only as to the particular newbie in question.  Newbie’s registration 9and perhaps the record of the dispute) would bar any third person from registering the same arms.

 

I suppose this principle could be applied under Joe’s model, but without the central registry (database) who would ever know, & what would stop a dispute over the same arms between, say, Wisconsin and FLorida, all in blissful ignorance that the SC JOe vs. California newbie case ever occurred.

 

I don’t pretend that my arguments will settle the matter, or that no better mechanism might not arise.  However, the discussion may prove useful in at least surfacing and testing a broader range of concerns and options.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 March 2007 16:31
 

Actually, we discussed all this in the guidelines discussion.  The issue only arises if there actually is confusion or damage to one or the other, which would only occur in a very few circumstances.  If McNewbie stays in California (or anywhere but in fairly close proximity to South Carolina) and vice versa, or if neither’s use of the same arms damages the interests of the other, it’s not an issue.  (I was reading up on early heraldic law last night, and this is actually what the medieval sources also say about duplication of arms, even in the same kingdom—no blood, no foul seems to have an older pedigree than just the NHL.)  If they do come into conflict, and something has to be done, then the older proven use prevails, just as we agreed in the guidelines.

As for which court, as in any lawsuit, that’s up to the plaintiff, but he has to keep in mind that the reach of any court is only as long as the extent of its jurisdiction.  So if the South Carolinian feels damaged by the Californian’s use of his arms, and wants to do something about it that will stick, he will have to go to the trouble of bringing his lawsuit in California.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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12 August 2014 21:46
 

Out of curiosity, what is the primary reason people would like to see a government heraldic authority? Is it: (a) to afford legal protection to arms, or, (b) for the perception of added legitimacy obtained by having arms "granted" by a sovereign power rather than "assumed?"

Reading this thread it seems the former, however, if that were merely the case I can’t imagine why any Americans apply for arms in places like Spain or South Africa.

 

As a very, very, out-of-the-box take-off of the state authority suggestion, what if a Native American tribe created a heraldic authority? For instance, the Comanche Heraldic Institute is created and grants arms to any U.S. citizen. There would be no enforcement authority outside Comancheria but it would resolve the "B" question since the Comanche are sovereign in letter, even if not meeting the Westphalian standards of sovereignty. The reason I mention that is that there are a number of tribes that have just 200 or 300 registered members and don’t operate casinos. The heraldic registration business in the U.S. is probably not a big money-pot but, for a tribe of that size, it could be a lucrative and self-sustaining business, where it might not be for the federal government.

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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13 August 2014 18:15
 

zebulon;102410 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what is the primary reason people would like to see a government heraldic authority? Is it: (a) to afford legal protection to arms, or, (b) for the perception of added legitimacy obtained by having arms "granted" by a sovereign power rather than "assumed?"

 


In my view, both.  Despite many good arguments to the contrary, I still think that an official government registration/grant office would be a positive.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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14 August 2014 12:19
 

zebulon;102410 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what is the primary reason people would like to see a government heraldic authority? Is it: (a) to afford legal protection to arms, or, (b) for the perception of added legitimacy obtained by having arms "granted" by a sovereign power rather than "assumed?"


I can only answer for myself, but I would say that it is primarily (A) – to afford legal protection of arms.

 

Option (B) is of no real concern to me.  My arms are no less “legitimate” to me because they are assumed rather than having been granted by a sovereignty.  On the contrary, being able to design them myself allowed me to really educate myself about heraldry and it allowed me to truly make the arms my own rather than just handing the project off to some random herald who only had a cursory knowledge of me.  My arms are superlatively meaningful to me, and I highly doubt that anyone could have designed them to be as meaningful for me.

 

Other reasons that I would support a US heraldic authority would be:

 

(C) Proving a comprehensive repository of heraldry in the United States that heraldists such as ourselves could search through endlessly, sort of like the CHA’s online “Public Register of Arms, Flags, and Badges of Canada”.

http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/main.asp

 

I’ll also throw in option (D), although it may seem a bit more superficial.  I am a bit jealous of our British colleagues who receive truly splendid letters patent with their arms.  I want one too!!

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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15 August 2014 00:21
 

steven harris;102434 wrote:

I’ll also throw in option (D), although it may seem a bit more superficial.  I am a bit jealous of our British colleagues who receive truly splendid letters patent with their arms.  I want one too!!


But the letters patent aren’t automatically included with a grant of arms. The client commissions the letters patent and negotiates for how elaborate (or not) they will appear with a heraldic artist who is recommended by the College. But the artist isn’t a member of the College. He/she is an independent contractor. So, if you want beautiful letters patent then contact a heraldic artist and commission some based on your budget.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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15 August 2014 01:53
 

gselvester;102452 wrote:

But the letters patent aren’t automatically included with a grant of arms. The client commissions the letters patent and negotiates for how elaborate (or not) they will appear with a heraldic artist who is recommended by the College. But the artist isn’t a member of the College. He/she is an independent contractor. So, if you want beautiful letters patent then contact a heraldic artist and commission some based on your budget.


In this case - assumed arms - those technically wouldn’t be letters patent, would they? It would just be a letter created in the style of letters patent, right?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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15 August 2014 09:07
 

I believe Fr. Guy is mistaken.  It is true that the client can pump up the lavishness of the letters patent by paying more for elaborate illumination, pendant vs. en placard seals, etc, but as far as I know all grants of arms by the English, Scottish, Irish, and Canadian heraldic authorities are documented by the issuance of letters patent.

LPs are the established legal form by which grants of rights, offices, monopolies, property, etc, are documented, but there’s no legal reason that they have to be as elaborate as those put out by the College of Arms, Lyon Office, or the OCHI.  The U.S. government issues letters patent granting land, sole rights to the exploitation of inventions, and civil and military offices, invariably on an engraved or printed form in which the details of the recipient, the property or office granted, dates, etc, are filled in.  The CHA offers two price points for LPs, a high end version similar to that provided with English, Scottish, and Irish grants, and an economy version in which the LP themselves are printed by computer rather than being hand-lettered, and the hand-painted emblazonment is on a separate sheet.  Even at that, the CHA estimates about $2400 as the minimum price of a grant taking the least expensive options all along the line.

 

Paying for a grant of arms without getting at least a text-only patent would be like buying a car and not getting the title, or a house without getting the deed.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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15 August 2014 09:11
 

zebulon;102454 wrote:

In this case - assumed arms - those technically wouldn’t be letters patent, would they? It would just be a letter created in the style of letters patent, right?


Yes, and depending on the wording a rather pompous, pretentious one.  Somewhere in the forum archives there is an exchange in which I think several of us agreed on an approach to a document by which one could document a claim a particular coat of arms that didn’t come across as if the person assuming the arms had proclaimed himself Emperor Boofus of Boofusia.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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15 August 2014 11:48
 

Joseph McMillan;102456 wrote:

I believe Fr. Guy is mistaken.  It is true that the client can pump up the lavishness of the letters patent by paying more for elaborate illumination, pendant vs. en placard seals, etc, but as far as I know all grants of arms by the English, Scottish, Irish, and Canadian heraldic authorities are documented by the issuance of letters patent.


No, I’m not mistaken. Rather, I expressed myself imprecisely and you have misunderstood by focusing on to the unfortunate way I expressed myself. Yes, letters patent are always issued but I was responding to the comment that British colleagues receive "truly splendid" letters patent with their grant. My point was that the document is only as splendid as what you can afford. My reference to the "grant" meant the documentary recording of the grant of arms and to "letters patent" not automatically accompanying the grant for the elaborate, diploma style, illuminated and calligraphic document with which most people are familiar.

 

It is true that letters patent are always issued to record the grant but that may simply take the form of a letter with or without an illustration. The "truly splendid" letters patent are not automatically issued and differ greatly depending on the client’s budget. Again, those assuming arms may have such a document commissioned if they wish.

 

Most of the Scottish, Canadian and South African documents are very plain and not elaborate at all. A big, fancy diploma with tons of illumination is not necessarily one of the perks afforded only to those having arms granted by an authority. Those who assume arms may have them to. It’s all a matter of what you are willing to pay someone to do it.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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15 August 2014 11:59
 

zebulon;102454 wrote:

In this case - assumed arms - those technically wouldn’t be letters patent, would they? It would just be a letter created in the style of letters patent, right?


They wouldn’t be a legal document like modern letters patent are. "Letters Patent" simply means an open letter because the seal was attached to the document and did not need to be broken to be read as it would be on Letters Close. They are called "letters" from the Latin "litterae patentes", used by medieval scribes when the documents were written in Latin, in the former sense of a collection of letters of the alphabet arranged to be read rather than in the modern sense of correspondence. There is no singular form. For assumed arms it would be more of a certificate. If the arms are being registered the document confirming the registration could be prepared in the elaborate, diploma-like style of what most people think of as letters patent including a seal from the organization in question authenticating the registration if not making it a legal document necessarily.