Confirming that the English Kings of Arms do not grant the knight’s open visored helm to knights of the Venerable Order of St. John, here are the arms of a knight of the order with the normal gentleman’s helm, taken from the letters patent granting the arms. (The presence of the Maltese cross behind the shield was the subject of a learned but speculative debate on rec.heraldry last month.) The arms are those of John Robert Brown; the image is posted in the online Burke’s armorial.
http://armorial-register.com/arms-en/arms-images-en/brown-jr-arms.jpg
But are you sure that is correct?
The gentleman was gazetted as Chaplain in the Venerable Order 27 August 2003, which grade is now equivalent to that of Commander.
His Burke’s entry states his grant from the COA was dated 27 January 2004, which means he was unlikely to have been promoted to knight before the date of his grant.
Not arguing, just trying to clarify this in my own mind.
/Charles
Either way, IMO a most attractive design, beautifully executed, and (now for the word from our sponsor) depicted in a manner eminently appropriate for display by an American in the US.
The arms themselves (shield) are also an excellentr example of a clean, simple, elegant desiogn using well-known charges, yet creatively arranged so as to be unique without being at all "busy"—them Brits shure do nice work!
it is beautiful work Mike.
You are correct. The College of Arms depicts the arms of knights in the MVOSJ with a gentleman’s helm rather than a knight’s helm (excepting, of course, when the armiger is also a knight in another British Order of Chivalry or a knight bachelor). Of course, peers who are also a KStJ use a peer’s helm. For example, you can see a gentleman’s helm in the arms of J. P. Brooke-Little (far right) in the margin of this 1985 devisal of arms issued to the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/heraldryjunkyard/heraldic2.jpg
Brooke-Little was made a KStJ in 1975.
Cheers,
However, the diploma of Guy Sainty as a KSJ shows the open helm, presumably indicative of that status. I realize this is not a grant from the COA, but is an official document. I had assumed that the design painted on the diploma was vetted with the COA.
http://www.sainty.org/saintyarms.htm
/Charles
I seem to remember that Guy Sainty had his arms matriculated in Scotland simply to have a patent with an open helm. He admitted that this was vanity on his part, but it would seem that Lord Lyon gives K.St.J.s a knights helm.
Oh yes, I think I recall reading this somewhere, but had forgotten the details. I remember his comment regarding something and vanity, however. Thanks.
/Charles
David has pipped me to the post. I believe that he right in saying that at one time when either Bailiffs Grand Cross or Knights of the Most Venerable Order of St John approached Lyon Court for a grant of arms or to matriculate existing arms they were allowed a knights helm, although I am not too sure as to the present policy at Lyon Court regarding this.
Yours aye,
John
