I am considering some small additions to my current armorial bearings as discussed earlier in the thread "Tincture Rule". I would like to use an eastern crown in my arms (i.e., on the shield and in a new badge). I understand that from a British perspective, however, that grants of eastern crowns were limited to those of high rank who rendered distinguished services in the East (e.g., HK, India, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, etc).
I am an American of Asian descent with my arms, badge & standard registered in South Africa. I have a few distinguished ancestors of noble rank but have not myself met the British requirement for an eastern crown. (Please note that the arms are registered in my own name and not registered on behalf of my long deceased ancestors). Given my situation, would it be major heraldic faux pas to simply assume an eastern crown in my arms? Would such an assumption be recognized by say the South Africa, Zimbabwe & Kenyan heraldic authorities (all nominally part of the Commonwealth)?
I would appreciate hearing the viewpoints of others on this matter. Thanks in advance.
Hello and nice to talk to ya for the first time.
I use one of these coronets in my crest, but it is termed an ancient Irish crown. But, it is really the same thing.
Now, I use it as it is a crest coronet, but in your case it would be on the arms. Now there is no American reason not to use a charge on your arms. This charge, whether on the arms or in the crest, is not a measure of nobility really.
However, and I don’t know if this is the case, I would be very careful not to include charges in your arms or crest specifically to make mention of an ancestor’s nobility. If it does exist and you would be entitled to its use by other national standards, from whence it comes, then to display it in your achievement is one thing, to allude to it when there is no clear, concrete connection then I would avoid it for that reason all together.
But, again, to have simply as a charge on your arms or in your crest is no big deal and there is no prohibition, even in the articles that this society has adopted drawn up in Joe’s work on it that you can read at the home page here.
If I misunderstood what you were asking I am sorry and just ignore this post. 
I agree with Denny on this issue, for the most part.
If you are putting a crown in because you like the look, or for purely ornamental purposes I have no problems with that symbol on the shield.
After thinking about it for a while I have flipped-flopped in my mind as to whether it would be appropriate to put a crown in the shield as an allusion to the nobility in your families history. It is distinctly American to give up all nobility, and claims of nobility when becoming a citizen. I can see where even presenting it as a part of one’s past in a heraldic manner could be easily mistaken as trying to say you have some claim on nobility….
However. Most (if not all) nobility representation in heraldry (that I have seen at least) is done in the crest, mantling, helm, suporters, etc. I have not seen that nobility claim done in the arms themselves, and have seen many examples of crowns etc on the shield that have no pretense of being noble. Mark Olivio has nothing but crowns on his and I never have associated his arms with a claim of nobility.
So I guess what I am saying is that I think it’s okay to display a crown, or other nobility symbol on your arms as a nod to your history as long as you make no pretense on a claim to nobility. I could be easily swayed the other way if one of the heraldic experts on this site disagrees with my assessment though.
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your posts. No I am not claiming nobility myself, but am alluding to my ancestry. I liken my use of an eastern crown to the use of loyalist coronets by those Canadians that can trace descent from loyalist ancestors.
The reason why I raise this issue is that I hope to eventually be eligible for an honorary English grant, and in the meantime I want to ensure that my arms do not violate English heraldry rules. Also I wanted to commission a noted heraldic artist to render a final, final version my arms, and so I do not want to keep making small changes and thus have to recommission the artist. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Again, I am no expert, so take my opinion for what it’s worth (hint: not much )
eploy;44715 wrote:
The reason why I raise this issue is that I hope to eventually be eligible for an honorary English grant, and in the meantime I want to ensure that my arms do not violate English heraldry rules. Also I wanted to commission a noted heraldic artist to render a final, final version my arms, and so I do not want to keep making small changes and thus have to recommission the artist. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
If you are Sri Lankan by parentage or citizenship, then you should be eligible at this time for a grant from either the College of Arms or the Court of the Lord Lyon. Do remember that the grants of arms from Scotland are less expensive than those form the College of Arms as well as being substantive rather than honorary arms. I see no reason for the crest coronet not to be accepted by British heraldic authorities. I am curious as to why you are altering you arms after your arms and associated symbols have been registered in South Africa?
Here is a link to a short discussion of the Ancient Crown on the Scottish Heraldic Forum: http://www.scotsheraldry.com/Forum/ShowMessage.asp?ID=6354
Here is a rec.heraldry discussion from 3 July 1993 in which the Eastern Crown is mentioned:
in article <6k736B1w1…@tsoft.net> .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (Alex C. J. Neroth) writes:
>1.) Is it possible for me to apply for a posthumous grant of arms in my
>paternal grandfatherUs name?
That was how Bill Shakespeare got his grant of arms. I don’t know if
any heralds do that now. I would be very surprised if Garter did.
>2.) I read in _Heraldry and You_ by J. A.
>Reynolds, a book on American heraldry, that in America oneUs mother does
>not have to be an heraldic heiress to have the quartered arms of both
>parents. Is this true?
In America there is no heraldic law per se, so you can do whatever you
want.
>3.) Assuming that the statement in _Heraldry
>and You_ is correct, and if my mother and her mother are not heraldic
>heiresses, am I entitled to have my fatherUs arms in quarters 1 and 4, my
>motherUs fatherUs arms in quarter 2, and my motherUs motherUs fatherUs
>arms in quarter 3?
Same answer. No laws on the subject in the USA.
4.) Assuming that the statement in _Heraldry and
>You_ is correct, and if my mother and her mother are not heraldic
>heiresses, am I entitled to have my fatherUs arms in quarter 1, my
>motherUs fatherUs arms in quarter 2, my motherUs motherUs fatherUs arms
>in quarter 3, and my motherUs motherUs fatherUs fatherUs motherUs
>fatherUs arms in quarter 4? (No, this is not a joke.)
There is no law entitling you to anything, so it doesn’t matter.
>5.) In the UK,
>does a first son but second child have to difference his arms?
Only during his father’s lifetime. Conceivably, a Scottish heir who
did not re-matriculate his father’s arms as his own might continue to
display his father’s arms differenced; but that’s just off the top of
my head.
>6.) Who
>is entitled to have his crest rising out of an Eastern Crown instead of a
>wreath?
Somebody whose crest is granted with an eastern crown. I believe it
used to be granted to people who had done well in the Indian Civil
Service and such like.
>7.) Who is entitled to supporters in the US and the UK? 8.)
In the US, again, nobody is entitled to anything. You can display
whatever you want. In the UK, supporters are generally granted to
corporate bodies and peers of the realm. The Queen could, of course,
grant supporters to anybody—it’s not a matter of entitlement.
>What is the current state of the granting of baronetcies in the UK?
They grant them. Baroness Thatcher’s husband, for instance, was made
a baronet; so in fact she was Lady Denis Thatcher before she was
Baroness Thatcher. Their son will be a bart. after his folks die.
Less well-known is the fact that the actor Christopher Guest (of
Spinal Tap and The Princess Bride fame) will on his father’s death be
Sir Christopher Guest of Haden-Guest, Bart. And, assuming he’s still
married to the leading lady of _A_Fish_Called_Wanda_, Jamie Lee CUrtis
will become Lady Christopher Guest of Haden-Guest.
Or something.
Aryk Nusbacher
David Pritchard;44720 wrote:
If you are Sri Lankan by parentage or citizenship, then you should be eligible at this time for a grant from either the College of Arms or the Court of the Lord Lyon. Do remember that the grants of arms from Scotland are less expensive than those form the College of Arms as well as being substantive rather than honorary arms. I see no reason for the crest coronet not to be accepted by British heraldic authorities. I am curious as to why you are altering you arms after your arms and associated symbols have been registered in South Africa?
David,
I am not of Sri Lankan parentage. My family is predominantly Thai/Siamese with some Malay & Indian roots, but these roots are almost 200 years old and not sufficiently documented so I do not believe I would be eligible for a British grant/matriculation at this time.
About altering my arms, I have borne the same arms for several years now and have subsequently made some interesting discoveries about my family which I believe warrant the alterations. Furthermore, I wish to better express aspects of my ethnicity and occupation.
I may or may not register my proposed changes with the SA Bureau of Heraldry. I am undecided at this time. Do you happen to know the amended tariff prices for registering with the Bureau of Heraldry? Presumably as an American, there is really nothing to prevent me from simply assuming the changes but maintaining the basic arms as registered with the SA Bureau so that subsequent generations of my family have a basic coat of arms from which to base their own properly differenced designs.
Regards,
Edward
The fee required for amending a South African Bureau of Heraldry registration of arms with crest is the same as that required for a new registration of arms with crest, that fee being over 800 USD.
David Pritchard;44726 wrote:
The fee required for amending a South African Bureau of Heraldry registration of arms with crest is the same as that required for a new registration of arms with crest, that fee being over 800 USD.
I recall registering my arms, badge & standard in 2001 for a mere USD 450. Apparently, things have changed! As an American, I may simply assume the changes but keep the basic arms as registered with the Bureau.
eploy;44727 wrote:
I recall registering my arms, badge & standard in 2001 for a mere USD 450. Apparently, things have changed! As an American, I may simply assume the changes but keep the basic arms as registered with the Bureau.
The value of the dollar versus the rand has fallen and the tariffs were raised. As always, these rates are cyclical and in time they will be lower. Imagine the fee for an English grant with the rate of exchange between the pound and the dollar being at a low not seen in decades!
Have you thought about employing a coronet that is traditional to the lands of your ancestry?
There are several noted civic arms in England that bear an Anglo-Saxon coronet. Distinctive, as in new(er), from other coronets and at the same time a nod to the cultural tradition of the people.
I have seen Irish arms where this is also employed. So, there is a way to make the arms very unique while also showing a connection to your family’s past.
Just curious, but why would you want a grant from the English College of Arms if your family heritage is not English or Welsh or Northern Irish? I may have missed it already, but I am curious as to the reason(s).
As to Irish arms with the “eastern” (in Irish arms it is referred to as an ancient Irish coronet, but it really is the same) coronets in the arms that are obvious are those of MacNally and MacEnchrowe. Where it is in the crest one thinks of O’Rourke, while one thinks of O’Mahoney for the use of a French count’s coronet and a British viscount’s coronet in the crest. Of course the civic arms of the ancient kingdom of Munster in Ireland have three ancient Irish coronets on the field.
So there is plenty of precedent to have these charges in the arms or crests.
Donnchadh;44735 wrote:
Have you thought about employing a coronet that is traditional to the lands of your ancestry?
There are several noted civic arms in England that bear an Anglo-Saxon coronet. Distinctive, as in new(er), from other coronets and at the same time a nod to the cultural tradition of the people.
I have seen Irish arms where this is also employed. So, there is a way to make the arms very unique while also showing a connection to your family’s past.
Just curious, but why would you want a grant from the English College of Arms if your family heritage is not English or Welsh or Northern Irish? I may have missed it already, but I am curious as to the reason(s).
As to Irish arms with the “eastern” (in Irish arms it is referred to as an ancient Irish coronet, but it really is the same) coronets in the arms that are obvious are those of MacNally and MacEnchrowe. Where it is in the crest one thinks of O’Rourke, while one thinks of O’Mahoney for the use of a French count’s coronet and a British viscount’s coronet in the crest. Of course the civic arms of the ancient kingdom of Munster in Ireland have three ancient Irish coronets on the field.
So there is plenty of precedent to have these charges in the arms or crests.
Unfortunately there was only a short-lived experiment with European style heraldry in Thailand - my country of origin. I have decided it may be more appropriate for me to invent my own coronet. See the separate thread: A New Coronet: Dharmapla Crown