Doug Welsh;61803 wrote:
So, for Spain, my standards are not valid, and my opinions are relevant only to those who share similar opinions, because clearly the Spanish share a different standard and opinion in at least these cases.
That is excellent as a hypothesis, because it is falsifiable by reference to the views of Spanish heraldists or by systematic examination of the thousands of Spanish arms to determine whether and how the rule is followed. But the existence of three examples of Spanish municipal arms—possibly self-designed—with tincture problems no more falsifies the rule than the example of Berwick upon Tweed, which has a green tree and a black bear on a red and blue field falsifies it for British heraldry.
Likewise the idea that the tincture rule doesn’t apply in Poland because Cardinal Wojtyla had arms that violated it is nonsense. When amateurs design arms, they make mistakes. That doesn’t make the mistakes right. The overwhelming majority of Polish arms are historic proclamatio arms, and they almost invariably involve a handful of gold or silver charges on a red or blue field.
I’m not proposing that the rule is absolute—that’s why I called it a principle before. But it isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of actual practice, and a handful of cases that violate it no more negates the principle than the fact that murders take place every day in Washington, DC, make murder legal.
For an excellent discussion citing some actual research on this issue, see http://www.heraldica.org/topics/tinctrul.htm.
In English grammar, we say that, as a rule, one should not split infinitives. There are many style manuals that state this rule, but many of them are are careful to say that the rule is not absolute. For example, in the Columbia manual it says:
Quote:
Conservative practice still tries to avoid them, especially at Planned, Oratorical, and Formal levels, particularly when they’re not necessary for grammatical clarity, and it uses them only when they seem clear, add emphasis, and help avoid contorted syntax.
There are great literary genius who split infinitives. The geniuses know what they are doing, and their split infinitives do not harm the work.
I think that if one were to gather up all the heraldic style manuals in the world, written by knowledgeable people, they would each state the tincture rule in some form, and many would note the rule s sometimes broken. But conservative practice is…
Michael Swanson;61820 wrote:
In English grammar, we say that, as a rule, one should not split infinitives.
I just read about that rule last week- apparently English grammaticians decided that such a rule should exist simply because one cannot split an infinitive in Latin, and since Latin was a perfect language, its rules should apply to English.
Off-topic, I know, but interesting.
Michael Swanson;61820 wrote:
In English grammar, we say that, as a rule, one should not split infinitives. There are many style manuals that state this rule, but many of them are are careful to say that the rule is not absolute. For example, in the Columbia manual it says:
There are great literary genius who split infinitives. The geniuses know what they are doing, and their split infinitives do not harm the work.
I think that if one were to gather up all the heraldic style manuals in the world, written by knowledgeable people, they would each state the tincture rule in some form, and many would note the rule s sometimes broken. But conservative practice is…
And the most famous split infinitive: ...to boldly go where no man has gone before….
Kenneth Mansfield;61822 wrote:
And the most famous split infinitive: ...to boldly go where no man has gone before….
"In those days men were real men, women were real women, small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. And all dared to brave unknown terrors, to do mighty deeds, to boldly split infinitives that no man had split before - and thus was the Empire forged."
just having fun
It was an excellent review of the issue, thank you for the cite, Joseph.
Michael Swanson;61820 wrote:
In English grammar, we say that, as a rule, one should not split infinitives. There are many style manuals that state this rule, but many of them are are careful to say that the rule is not absolute. For example, in the Columbia manual it says:
There are great literary genius who split infinitives. The geniuses know what they are doing, and their split infinitives do not harm the work.
I think that if one were to gather up all the heraldic style manuals in the world, written by knowledgeable people, they would each state the tincture rule in some form, and many would note the rule s sometimes broken. But conservative practice is…
I’m not conservative, Michael. Sorry. :D
Violations of the tincture rule are something up with which we should not put.
/Charles
I wholeheartedly agree!
Kenneth Mansfield;61812 wrote:
It is sort of charming in it’s own way….
You had to go there, didn’t you? :rolleyes: I must admit, though, that it is indeed charming. :cool:
de Martainneville Family Arms
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Darkly aspected, but they would be notable on the field of battle.
The village of Nailly, France.
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Takes all the challenge out of it, to put the name on the arms. Sheesh!
Saint-Julien de Concelles, France
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